Conversation: Why are Pashtun nationalists mute on Deobandi ideology and identity of TTP-ASWJ terrorists?
Related posts: Role of Abdul Ghaffar Khan in the spread of Deobandi ideology in Pashtuns – See more at: https://lubpak.com/archives/306211
Ahmad Shah Durrani Abadali and Shah Waliullah: Pioneers of Shia Genocide in Subcontinent – See more at: https://lubpak.com/archives/306269
Historical context and roots of Deobandi terrorism in Pakistan and India – See more at: https://lubpak.com/archives/306115
کچھ لوگ تحریک طالبان،اہل سنت والجماعت کے دھشت گردوں کی دیوبندی تکفیری شناخت سے انکاری کیوں؟ – See more at: https://lubpak.com/archives/306289
Note: This thought provoking conversation, presenting diverse views on this topic, took place recently on facebook. Due to its relevance to the ideological roots and historical context of the Deobandi terrorism that currently engulfs Pakistan in general and the KP and FATA in particular, we are archiving it on LUBP.
Abdul Nishapuri: A few (not all) Pashtun friends who NEVER celarly mention common Deobandi identity and ideology of TTP, ASWJ, LeJ terrorists are clearly condemning Pakistan army on Pashtun killings in Waziristan. Silence of Pashtun secular and nationalist friends on #Deobandi identity of ASWJ-TTP terrorists raises many questions about their real agenda and possible sectarian bias. If you can (legitimately) condemn Punjabi generals sitting in Aabpara and their Saudi Salafi sponsors, why can’t you clearly name and condemn Deobandi terror machine responsible for not only Sunni Barelvi genocide and Shia genocide but also for the massacres of secular Balochs and Pashtuns?
Explanation, any one?
Farhat Taj: Terrorists are terrorists regardless their sectarian identity. It is true that sectarian identity of most terrorists in Pakistan is Dewbandi. I can’t rememebr I have ever tried to conceal or tone down this identity in a context where it is appropriate to mention. I do not know any of the Pashtun nationalists who I know have done so- at least not that I can recall any one has done so. There must be nothing stopping a fair analyst from mentioning the Deobandi identity of the militants.
Abdul Nishapuri: Farhat Taj, Your writings on Deobandi terrorism are clear and much appreciated by the target killed communities. However, quite a few Pashtun nationalist friends (not unlike some Kufi Shias) try to hide or dilute the common Deobandi identity of TTP-ASWJ-LeJ terrorists. In our considered views, generic words such as takfiri, extremist, terrorist, khawarij, Islamist, Sunni, etc serve to dilute the actual identity of Deobandi terrorists.
Farhat Taj: Deobandi version of Islam has been prevenlent in the Pashtun areas and has been dominated by the Pashtun cultural norms. It become dangerous, first of all for Pashtun and other for others, when it was empowered with all kind resources by our own state for using it in strategic objectives. Any version of any religion can take a dangerous shape in such condition. By the way, extermism is not restricted to Dewbandis. How would one explain the behaviour of Baralvies vis-a-vis the killer of Salman Taseer. This is not to rationalise the Deobandi extermism , but just to say that when states support extemrist religious version, any one of them can become a danger to human security.
Abdul Nishapuri: Please have a look at this:https://lubpak.com/archives/tag/media-discourse-on-deobandi-terrorism Such efforts need to be reinforced. Pasthun nationalist friends too should help because it will help all of us.
Farhat Taj: OK thanks. Will read this. But get your point. Yes, this dewbandi identity should be mentioned.
Abdul Nishapuri: Statistics prove that Sunni Barelvi or Sufi terrorism in Pakistan or worldwide is an exception, not a norm. Salafi Wahhabi ideology has the monopoloy on violence which has been subcontracted to Deobandis in Pakistan and Afghanistan. Here’s an alternative view on Mumtaz Qadri (Mal’oon) and Barelvi terrorism: https://lubpak.com/archives/249647.
Also this one is hot off the press: Saudi Arabia’s (Salafi) minister acknowledges Deoband’s contribution http://www.arabnews.com/news/527401.
Farhat Taj: OK thanks. I will read these. But for now I can only say that I agree that Deobandi identity of the terrorists should not be toned down or concealed. However, I find it difficult to believe that somehow the Deobandi version of Islam has the inbuilt capacity to take to terror and violence and that other versions of Islam lack that capacity. The area peopled by the Deobandi followers was chosen for strategic reason by power totally beyond the control of the local population, US, Saudi Arabia and Pakistani state (proximity to Afghanistan). They invested a lot a established a whole system of Jihad in the area. I think if the strategic consideration had pointed to another area in Pakistan with a different version of Islam, we would have been seeing the same in that area as we see in Deobandi areas. By the way, as a woman, I am concerned about conservative ternds in all version of Islam, Dewbandi, Barelwi or Shia or others.
Abdul Nishapuri: Please review this article: Historical context and roots of Deobandi terrorism in the subcontinent
Rashid Orakzai: Generalization is always faulty. Not all Deobandis are terrorists. Let’s be politically correct. And for this they have been targeted. shouting through keyboard wont help. Look for political correctness. No Islamic Sect has been entirely non violent. Nearly all had militant wings in the 90s at least.
Abdul Nishapuri: Generalization is equally bad when people bash Sunnis, Wahhabis, Saudis and Punjabis. The matter of fact is that there is not a single Deobandi cleric who has categorically issued fatwa against TTP and ASWJ-SSP.
Rashid Orakzai: Watch Maulana Fazul Rehman on the talk show. Maulana Hassan Jan, by the way was very vocal against SSP and Talibs.
Abdul Nishapuri: LUBP was one of the very few websites that ACTUALLY published a detailed article on Maulana Hasan Jan but he too never issued a clear fatwa against TTP or ASWJ-LeJ.
Farhat Taj: I think one clear reason why not sensible/moderate Deobandi clerics are condemning TTP, LJ etc is that fear, lack of state support, ambiguity in the state policy towards Taliban etc. This is a real reason and should not be dismissed out of hand. Espacially after what happened to Maulana Hasan Jan-his killers are not apprehended by the state. In FATA too moderate mullahs have been killed and that silenced the others in to fear. I think Deobandi mullahs will be more vocal against terrorism, when the state policy is changed.
Abdul Nishapuri: Many Sunni Barelvi clerics have been killed but they continue to clearly speak against TTP, ASWJ terrorists and also continue to issue fatwas. Indeed, violence always has a rational context but that doesn’t mean that we dilute the identity of terrorists and their sponsors, nor does it belittle the gravity of violence. Correct prescription is important before correct resolution.
Rashid Orakzai: Don’t forget cleric condemnation from the Masjid Member and yours on the social media from a cosy room are not same. Specially when the ideology is detrimental to military’s aim and ambitions. We all are made of flesh and bones and are responsible for our near and dear ones. YOu denied any substantial fatwa from Deobandis but Maulana says 150 or more have signed at least twice. that was answer to your comment.
Farhat Taj: Maulana Hasdan Jan was also the one who supported the state policy of imposing Taliban on Afghanistan. But he opposed suicide bombing when they frequently began to happen in Pakistan. Perhaps, if he had lived a longer, he would have opposed TTP, LJ etc. BUt perhaps, as I said. But I think let do not forget to pay some respect to Maulana Hassan Jan since he was killed for expressing a view on Taliban etc.
Imran Khan: When you say “a few” then it’s important to name them so that they can defend themselves and explain what their real agenda is.
Abdul Nishapuri: Imran, All those who never highlight the “Deobandi” identity of terrorists but frequently bash “Punjabis”, “Sunnis”, or “Wahhabis” etc.
Farhat Taj: Yes, Shia and Barelvi etc opnely oppose Taliban due to threats to their lives. This is perhaps because they do not have choice. In Taliban LJ version of Islam they are liable to death. They will be killed anyway. The Dewbandi , perhaps, think they have a choice. If they shut up, they may survive.
Sadiq Ali No all deobandies are terrorist but majority Pashtuns deobandies, I found very hostile towards shia. For example in Peshawar, Govt hight school civil quarter, where I did my schooling majority of our school fellow were convinced that Shia are Kafir. Even arabic teacher Named Gul Rahman (who was Imam of some mosque) used tell me in funny way that Shia are kafir during class. He was making fun of Zul Janah and Shia matam during class. I was not allowed to hold my arm open in Tilawat during Assembly time. On the streets where I was living majority were convinced about Shia Kafir narratives. So Majority Pashtuns deobandi are not terrorists but they are indeed having soft corner to majority terrorists.
Abdul Nishapuri Rashid, Provide a single clear fatwa by a Deobandi cleric against TTP or ASWJ-SSP. Repeat fatwa, clear fatwa!
Farhat Taj Sadiq Ali, I agree. The situation has grown anti-shia over the years since the days of the so-called Afghan Jihad. But , could you please ask your elders? This has not been so two-three decades ago. I still remember my father participated in MOharam gatherings with his shia friends and the same is true about many other sunnis of that time. One evidence is that we have inter-marriages between Dewbandis and Shias in KP.
Sadiq Ali Yes, I agree. My father use to tell me that before Afghan Jehad, in FATA there was no Shia Suni divide….We were recognized by identity based on tribes like Turi, Wazeers, Orakzai etc.
Abdul Nishapuri Deobandi clerics, mosques and madrassas have willingly prostituted themselves in the Saudi-ISI-CIA Jihad Enterprise. They have enjoyed government, power, guns, money, but they don’t want to take the blame?
Abdul Nishapuri Farhat Taj, Hot off the press. BBC Urdu bashes Sunnis hiding the fact that Deobandi (not Sunni Barelvis, not Sunni Salafis) are prepetrators of violence. Constructs false Sunni-Shia binary whereas the binary is between Deobandi Takfiris and those opposed to them. http://www.bbc.co.uk/urdu/pakistan/2014/02/140223_kohat_police_line_blast_tk.shtml
Media is hiding the Shia identity of most of the victims.
پاکستان – BBC Urdu – کوہاٹ: پولیس لائن کے قریب دھماکہ، 10 ہلاک
پاکستان کے صوبہ خیبر کے ضلع کوہاٹ میں پولیس لائن کے قریب ہونے والے دھماکے میں کم سے کم 10 افراد ہلاک اور 17 زخمی ہوگئے ہیں۔
There are several examples of Sunni bashing in mainstream media (eg BBC) while deleting the Deobandi identity of terrorists.
Farhat Taj And you know what. I think most people in Kohat are Dewbandis. I am pretty sure those killed in this blast are Deobandis, at least most of them. (Editor’s note: Farhat Taj later conceded that most of those killed in the Kohat blast on 23 Feb 2014 were Shia Muslims.)
Muhammad Arif I think in the historical continuation the issue of terrorism has never been Deobandi vs. Barelvi among Pashtuns. The folk Brelvi traditions of Suf saints were never disregarded by the Deobandis. The Deobandi were used and introduced with the Wahabis during the Afghan war. Talibanization was not necessarily prusued as a Deobandi or Wahabi ideology by the Paksitan state. it was used for political and military purposes also called strategic depth. Why is the state and its institutions so weak to officially renounce its politics?
Abdul Nishapuri Farhat Taj Yes, many ordinary Deobandis have also died in indiscriminate attacks by Deobandi terror outfits. However, the identity of the perpetraors remains almost always the same: Deobandi Takfiri terrorists. This fact is often ignored or censored in mainstream media.
Abdul Nishapuri “The Deobandi were used” narrative is only partially correct. This serves to deprive Deobandis of their own agency and also serves to exonerate them from the crimes they have committed and continue to commit.
Sadiq Ali Pashtuns need to leave Pseudo-leaders and political parties(JI, PTI, JUI etc) and follow ANP, PKMAP. I also suggest Pashtun Shia in Orakzai, Kurram and Hangu that they should hold hands of these secular parties otherwise they will be in problems for long time in this region.
Rashid Orakzai Abdul Nishapuri three prominant deobandi clerics also ex parliamentarians have been taken by these state sponsored mercenaries. When attacking TJ markaz, are they looking for Ahle Tashi in the Shab e Jumma?
And if we follow your logic, only deaths of prominent people should be considered as brutal.Ordinary dies everyday on the streets.
Sadiq Ali Rashid Orakzai, Here is a question….Why these common Pashtuns don’t come on the streets as Shia do or Christians did after the church Blast? They still don’t want to identify their enemies.
Abdul Nishapuri Rashi, Before I respond to your new question, can you respond to my question about fatwa please?
Rashid Orakzai Can they, Sadiq Ali? They are not minority and hence not united or act in unity. They are diverse. All those who spoke in Orakzai and Hangu have nearly been exterminated. I again quote Hassan Jan’s murder. People can’t speak against MQM in Karachi what to talk of the Deep state behind the phenomenon.
For reference observe the split of Killed MPA from Hangu from SSP and LeJ. Among the religious lot, the JUI has been the most bruised. See how an acting Zila Nazim, Khan Afzal (JUI-F) was killed in Aitekaf. Haji Afzal was know for his sunni shia unity in Hangu though he belonged to village of Maulana Abdullah, the most staunch SSP supporter.
Abdul Nishapuri Sadiq, Many of these secualr Pashtun parties did nothing while Turi Pashtun Shias of Parachinar were blockaded and massacred by Deobandi terrorists. Same attitutde previals until today. Any Turi from Parachinar can confirm this!
Rashid Orakzai FATA is controlled by Isloo not Peshawar. ANP lost more than 700 workers including leaders. what Abdul Nishapuri is doing is widening the gap and sweeping all with one brush. IT’s not that simple on the ground. Could the PPP make public their BB’s murder investigations?
Aamir Hussaini Rashid Orakzai, For your kind information, blasts in Tablighi Markaz Peshawar in friday evening occurred during processing bomb device and there was explosive materials dumped and stored and plan was to target Shia Imam Bargahs and Majalis
Farhat Taj FATA where Turis live is off area for secular political parties. ANP all over KP was battered as much as Tuiris were being battered in Upper KUrram. There is always a space to argue that political parties could have done better, but I think singling out the ANP in this manner is a bit unfair. PMAP has no presence in Kurram or any other parts of FATA minus Waziristan.
Farhat Taj Also note that FATA is federal area. There has been many discussions in the ANP (when it was in power in KP) to help FATA in some ways, despite its federal status, but there were legal hurdles that the provincial govt could not remove. During the discussion for 18th amendment all parties left the ANP alone on the issue of security in FATA
Sadiq Ali Abdul Nishapuri, I found people like Mian Iftekhar, Khattak etc very vocal against the Shia killings. But the question is ..What they can do other than speaking for Shia? Also these political people gain power from the people….and people follow their own sectarian leaders not them.
Aamir Hussaini I think that ANP should take a clear stance against deobandi terrorist organizations like ASWJ ,lashkar jhangvi and their anti Shia drive particularly in KPK and tribal agencies.Farhat .I never saw even single statement against this in media made by ANP but they always tried to present sectarian terrorism phenomenon as punuabi terrorist issue .
Sadiq Ali Abdul Nishapuri, I am a Turi from Parachinar. When people from Parachinar were doing protests in Islamabad then the participation of Secular ANP was more than other Party.
Farhat Taj This is because the terror nerve centre is PUnjab and the army establishment is nurturing terrorists.
Sadiq Ali Aamir Hussaini! At least anti-shia campaign in Parachinar was initiated by Jhang based SSP.
Farhat Taj Once the PUnjabi links, especially the state backed links of our terrorists are eliminated, I hope, the Pashtun will manage to subdue the terrorists among them.
Sadiq Ali Yes,these links (PTI, JI, JUI etc) should be eliminated.
Farhat Taj Dear ANP friends, please come over and comment. It is said here that ANP stance on anti-shia group is not clear and that some how the ANP is condoning / supporting the anti-shia terror groups. This is of course wrong and unfair, but would be good to hear directly from the ANP people what they have to say.
Abdul Nishapuri Many people from Parachinar have complained how secular parties have been indifferent to their plight. For example, see this tweet: Riaz Ali Turi @RiazToori Jan 21 #ANP silence was marked and felt badly when #Parachinar was on fire, in case of #FATA ANP remains silence https://twitter.com/RiazToori/status/425499411209527296
Aamir Hussaini: I agree that in Parachinar anti shia campaign was intiated by SSP but now SSP is not just mono-ethnic Deobandis but i know that in that organizations Pushtoons,saraiki,punjabis,even some Baluch ,Sindhis deobandis are also vanguard of this organization.And Farhat you are right that some sections and factions of this organizations are working for Military establishment and they are major proxy in Baluch dominated areas and involved in baluch genocide .
Sadiq Ali Abdul Nishapuri, Riaz is dear cousin of mine and he has strong affiliation with PPP. He can complain but he never raised such issue against the silence of much more stronger Zardari or PPP. In fact Zardari was Chief Executive of the FATA while ANP was nothing in FATA affairs.
Farhat Taj Sadiq Ali- now what you say about this opinion of this PPP man, Riaz Toori? Let’s ask him what PPP did for Pararchinar since this party was in the central govt and Pararchinar comes directly under the federal rule. ANP , bettered by terrorists in all directions, was in the provincial govt that has no control over Pararchinar.
Pukhtunyar Khan Mr Abdul Nishapuri, as a shia, where do you stand on the Assad family’s long history of killing Sunnis and I am not even talking about the last couple of years. Do you stand for democracy in Syria?
Farhat Taj Pukhtunyar Khan- let’s leave Syria out of this discussion. Let’s focus more on our country.
Abdul Nishapuri Who is this Pukhtunyar Khan and why is he discussing Syria in this thread?
Aamir Hussaini my point of view is that SSP and TTP is deobandi terrorist organizations having caders from different ethnic background and their deobandi identity should not be distorted and their anti Shia,Barelvi drive is very clear it should be condemned clearly
Pukhtunyar Khan Why not, I am just flipping his argument. He think we ought to condemn the whole world, I want to know how good is he at doing the same.
Sadiq Ali Better focus on the topic, if you have some thing to add…….PukhtunyarKhan!
Abdul Nishapuri Let him speak his mind. That’s exactly what Shias and Sunni Barelvis are currently facing in Peshawar, Hangu, Kohat and FATA.
Abdul Nishapuri Let’s now revert to the topic. Sadiq Ali Do you agree that Deobandi terrorists should be mentioned as Sunnis as is often done by mainstream media and rights groups?
Farhat Taj I see no problem in mentioning their Dewbandi identity.
Aamir Hussaini Actually in my view this is fact that former Federal Government and provincial government never tried to banned SSP and they actually compromised with military establishment and opened that field for military establishment and agencies.We should not miss that point that FATA ,KPK and Baluchistan actually were handed over to military establishment and this was military establishment which was hansling internal security policy and simply former provincial and federalgovernments withdrew from this sphere
21 hours ago · Unlike · 2
Abdul Nishapuri Farhat Taj That’s the whole point of this thread and I am glad we agree on this specific issue.
Pukhtunyar Khan · I don’t want to dance around the issue. I find his assertions extremely offensive. All one has to do is scroll thru this guy’s wall to see that he has extreme bias against Sunnis. You can’t be on the band wagon of fundos-B and asking others to condemn fundos-A.
But lets leave that aside, why are you not complaining about the shia ex-President Zardari. You think ANP was more powerful then him? What about PKMAP, why is that so many Hazars in Quetta are joining PKMAP and voting for them.
Aamir Hussaini Yes, we should not depict current terrorism as Sunni terrorism or Sunni militancy but Deobandi terrorism and should not say Sunni taliban or Sunni exteremist SSP, but Deobandi Taliban or Deobandi SSP.
Abdul Nishapuri Pukhtunyar Khan, What makes you think I am extremely biased against Sunnis? In fact I am opposed to generic Sunni bashing in the mainstream media and human rights reports while the perpetrators are Deobandi Takfiris.
Sadiq Ali Every one should accept the fact that majority terrorist groups LEJ/SSP/TTP are affiliated with Deobandi school. Even Deobandis themselves should disown this small fraction. Otherwise the way their present leadership (Ludhianvi, Fazal, AbdulaAzir etc) is defending these monsters, one should always point finger towards Deobandi school as a whole.
Farhat Taj WEll I think official SSP is banned since (if I am not wrong) Mush time. But it is not really banned due to its ‘strategic asset’ status for the army establishment. We could question to some extent political parties, but mainly it is the GHQ that controls. FATA was not the jurisduction of the ANP led previous provincial govt, (although the party was a junior partner in the federal govt led by PPP). Nevertheless, ANP was bettered by the terrorists all thought its govt time. Could or should we conclude that the ANP did nothing that annoyed some powerfuls and that the ANP was bettered just for fun?
21 hours ago · Unlike · 3
Abdul Nishapuri ANP’s sacrifices are many, no doubt. It’s the discourse on Deobandi terrorism that needs clarity. See, for example, our criticism of PPP and its leaders: https://lubpak.com/archives/tag/criticism-of-ppp
Aamir Hussaini SSP was banned but in one month after banning this organization started work again with new name Ahl e Sunnat Waljamat (ASWJ) in all four provinces and in FATA and Gilgit Baltistan also and this organization at this time made its new pockets in interior Sindh also and in Baluchistan where it was not strong when it was working with name of SSP. And tragedy is that niether in KPK nor in Sindh and Baluchistan and even in Islamabad this organization was banned but in Sindh its leadership enjoyed provincial security as their leaders were enjoying patronage of Punjab Government in Punjab and patronage of F.C and Army in Baluchistan.
Pukhtunyar Khan · Are you? Because you keep throwing the label Deobandi as an insult. Can a sunni go ahead and do the same for Alawites? Where did you come up with the conclusion that ALL deobandis, 10s of millions are Taliban? I’ll bet you any amount of money that majority of those killed by Taleban are deobandis, including the 23 FC soldiers last week.
Abdul Nishapuri I will keep this thread focused on Pakistan. Do you deny the common Deobandi identity of TTP, ASWJ, LeJ, Jundullah, JeM etc terrorists in Pakistan responsible for almost all suicide attacks and bomb blasts?
Pukhtunyar Khan · If you are to focus it on Pakistan then why are talking about Deoband, since that institution is in India? But you are confused (or biased as I said before) because you can’t seem to make up your mind. Is it Deobandis or Wahabis, I don’t think they can be both at the same time.
Abdul Nishapuri They are Pakistani Deobandis, backed by Saudi Salafis.
Sadiq Ali Pukhtunyar Khan, So the leaders (Fazal ur rehman, Ludhianvi etc) of Deoband school should disown these groups LEJ/TTP/. Then no one would have courage to point towards them.
Farhat Taj Yes my hunch is also that in a reliable numerical analysis most victims of the terrorism would be Dewbandis in FATA and Khyber-Pakhtunkhwa. But also the point is that the terror groups, TTP, LJ ASWJ, subscribe to Dewbandi version of Islam. That certainly does not make them representatives of all 10 millions Dewbandis, but it is just a factual reality that they all subscribe to Dewbandi version.
Pukhtunyar Khan · Deobandis are estimated to be 15-30% of the country, you think they are all terrorists or sympathizers? I am not very good at math but I always thought that all religious parties in Pakistan can’t even muster 5% of the total cast vote. So your assertions confuse me. And I need to say again, I am extremely offended what you said about ANP and Pashtuns.
Sadiq Ali All of them are not terrorists but majority of them have soft corner towardes TTP/SSP/LEJ. @Pukhtunyarkhan
Aamir Hussaini No doubt, despite some compromises and withdrwal from liberal and secular parties like PPP and ANP due to not falling complete in conflict with military establishment and due to pressure of right wing deobandi wahabbi pressure, they suffered more and terrorists targeted their members of Parliament, workers and leadership and forced them to pack up their election campaign but this is also reality that they did not adopt a clear cut strategy and policy against proliferation of pro militant organizations like SSP
Abdul Nishapuri Call them Sunni they don’t mind, call them Deobandi, it hits them in the eye and they hit back! (Those who remain in denial about common Deobandi identity of TTP-ASWJ-LeJ terrorists!)
Abdul Nishapuri Farhat Taj, Shias constitute 10-20% of the population but represent more than 45% of the total number killed in KP since Imran Khan came to power in June 2013. Data speaks for itself: http://pakistanehrc.wordpress.com/2014/02/05/kp/
Full list of terrorist incidents in Khyber Pakhtunkhwa since PTI came to power in June 2013
Since 1 June 2013 to 4 February 2014, in more than 93 terrorist attacks, at least 441 innocent people have been killed while 635 have been injured by radical Deobandi terrorists in Pakistan’s KP province.
Sadiq Ali @PukhtunyarKhan, It’s very simple. Accept the fact that TTP/LEJ type groups are enemy of every one (Deobandi/Shia/Suni/ even animals). Now we should also accept the fact that they are using flagship of Deobandi school and Deobandiies leaders are their consistent apologists/ Moral boosters. Once we accept these facts then all deobandies should jointly disown this small fraction.
Aamir Hussaini Farhat, reality is that all big seminaries of deobandi school of thoughts are backing and suppoeting Taliban and LEJ and their Mufti Sahiban never disown them .Even all big Clerics like Mufti Taqi Usmani,Mufti Naeem,molana Saleemullah khan president of awafaqulmadaris and molvis of Akora Khatak are supporting leadership of TTP and ASWJ and ludhainvi and other anti Shia sunni barelvi compaigners get VVIP protocol in all big and small seminaries and mosques of deobandis.
Farhat Taj Since its exit from power there are less number of attacks on the ANP ranks and files. I was actually referring to the total number of people killed in FATA and KP since 2002. That would, my hunch is that, include more Dewbandis than others. This is of course not to belittle the killing of shias. Actauly in FATA and KP every one who is opposed to the terrorists have come under attack regardless their faith. Take for example, the over 1000 tribal leaders killed in FATA. Majority of them is clearly Dewbandi, I understand.
Pukhtunyar Khan Sadiq, I agree with you but do you think its just a religious issue or a political one too. I am still of the view that Zardari gov deserves some blame for not clamping down on what you mentioned.
Sadiq Ali Pukhtunyar khan! I agree that the issue is political, imperialistic but we have to accept/identify the means that are always exploited.
Abdul Nishapuri Farhat Taj, The fact that many ordinary Deobandi folks have died in TTP-ASWJ’s terrorist attacks in KP and elsewhere is not in question. Some anti-Taliban (or ex-asset) Deobandi clerics too have died, some of them also due to intra Deobandi rift. It is the correct identification of local terror outfits and their sponsors which is in question.
Aamir Hussaini my dear Sadiq Ali at this time reality is that mostly seminaries of deobandi school of thought including Jamia Banoria ,daruloom Kabirwala ,daruloom karachi,haqaqniyaa and many others all over pakistan have become logistic support centers and safe havens for TTP and ASWJ TERRORIST
Sadiq Ali Farhat Taj, Indeed the big bunch of victims of these Takfires is Pashtuns. But their voice is not as clear as Shia against these groups. We should know why?
Abdul Nishapuri Takfiri is as generic word as is Sunni. Let me illustrate why: https://lubpak.com/archives/293377
تکفیری کی مذمت لیکن تکفیری دیوبندی پر خاموشی: شیعہ کلنگ ویب سائٹ اور سپاہ صحابہ کے لدھیانوی کا…
Related post: Silence on Takfiri Deobandi identity: A conversation between a Shia web site and a Sunni activist https://lubpak.com/archives/293453 سپاہ صحابہ اور طالبان کے تکفیری دیوبندی دہشت گردوں کو فقط تکفیری کہنے سے ان کی صحیح شناخت نہیں ہوتی حال میں پاکستانی میڈیا اور سوشل میڈیامیں کچھ لوگ تکفیر…
Arif Jamal OMG… Very interesting debate… I have not read all the posts.. will read and may be post.. I mostly agree Farhat Taj in this thread and elsewhere, however, I disagree with her on Maulana Hasan Jan… I interviewed him several times and did not find him different from others. I think he would have gone with TTP if he had lived longer.
Farhat Taj Yes, I have said in the above that Maulana Hassan Jan was all OK with the GHQ jihad in Afghanistan. He only expressed his negative opinion on suicide bombing in Pakistan and was taken out for that. Now the position of ‘Jjihad is good in Afghanistan, but bad in Pakistan’ is a very problematic position and should not be seen as 100% anti-terror position. So, the late Maulana was not 100% against terrorism.
Arif Jamal Saudis have done a great service to Pakistan. WE should all be thankful to them. And I am serious. At the start of the Afghan jihad, they made it sure with the ISI that Shias and Brelvis would not be allowed to form their groups. The Saudis again made sure that the ISI would crush both Shia and Brelvi groups in Kashmir jihad. The Pakistani Shias had little interest in Afghan or Kashmir jihad, there is evidence that Kashmiri Shias wanted to join jihad but the ISI discouraged every Shia from Kashmir. I have enough evidence to that. Brelvis had to join Deobandis and JI to join jihad and they eventually adopted their sectarian belief system. Only JI and Deobandi were allowed. Imagine if this had not happened, Every other Pakistani would have been a Mumtaz Qadri. Thank you Saudi Arabia….
Arif Jamal Farhat Taj I tend to agree with you on hasan jan death. However, I want to explore the intra-deobandi conflict. I think the problem is deeper. I wonder you or anybody else can throw light ton this???
Abdul Nishapuri This confirms that terrorism in this region is not purely political but also ideological. Therefore, Saudi Salafis and their surrogates in ISI chose to invest in Deobandi and Salafi clerics, politicians and groups in Pakistan, Kashmir and Afghanistan. And continue to do so (eg DPC). Ditto for Saudi investment in Libya, Syria and other countries. The Salafi-Deobandi nexus is currently not only operating in Kashmir and AfPak but also in Syria and other countries. Unless secular parties and politicians clearly identify and expose this nexus, there is little hope that they will be able to defeat it.
Abdul Nishapuri Intra-Deobandi feud. Some of these posts were contributed by moderate Deobandi friends. https://lubpak.com/archives/tag/intra-deobandi-feud
Arif Jamal Abdul Nishapuri I am talking about why Taliban want to kill fazlur Rehman (Drone be upon him!). Why they killed Col Iman (Drone be upon him!)?
Abdul Nishapuri If Taliban really wanted to kill Fazlur Rehman, they could have easily killed him by now. Ditto for their (failed) attacks on Qazi Hussain Ahmed, Hamid Mir types. Perhaps they wanted to threaten him to more tightly tow their line or perhaps they wanted to demonstrate some kind of distance?
Abdul Nishapuri A recent example of the Salafi-Deobandi nexus: Saudi ‘seeking Pakistan arms for Syrian (Salafi and Deobandi) rebels’ (imported from Pakistan, Saudi Arabia, Jordan, Lebanon, Turkey, Libya). Saudi Arabia is in talks with Pakistan to provide anti-aircraft and anti-tank rockets to (organ-eating) Syrian rebels (read Al Nsura, Al Qaeda, Taliban, Sipah-e-Sahaba and Jamaat-e-Islami).
Saudi ‘seeking Pakistan arms for Syrian rebels’
Saudi Arabia is in talks with Pakistan to provide anti-aircraft and anti-tank rockets to Syrian rebels to try to tip the balance in the war to overthrow President Bashar al-Assad, a Saudi source said
Sabir Nazar Abdul Nishapuri…you are now officially my hero
Abdul Nishapuri You are very kind. I ain’t no hero, I’m a firefigter. Sabir Nazar
Sabir Nazar But you brought the topic…that i was too hesitant to write.
Aamir Hussaini Actually fazal ur rehman’s political strength is shirnking due to new unannounced alliance among Taliban,ASWJ and faction of JUI and some other factions of deobandis.Fazal ur rahman group is feeling more heat due to one side alliance of PTI and on other side taliban and pro Taliban deobandis.Fazal ur rahman actually can not go beyond particular line .
Naseem Chaudhary For me Farhat Taj is one of my favorite writer on Pashtun. She is unbiased and also I see that she always take feedback. In Pakistan, Deobandi Maktab e Fikar allow themselves to b used by establishment for game of strategic depth. ASWJ & Taliban are in the main Deobandi dominant. This was made public in “Mazaak Raat” sham dialogue btw Taliban and Taliban. No Sunni Barelvis or Ahle Ta Shayio among taliban and ASWj. Pashtuns, especially Shia largest victims of this terror groups. The real dangerous person is Mian Nawaz Sharif and Shahbaz Sharif. Imran Khan is a joker.
Spot on. Dobandi ideology is evil, not pashtun ethnicity.
In Quetta, they try to hijack it as Hazara genocide, in Karachi, they try to hijack it as Muhajir genocide, in KP and FATA, they try to hijack it as Pashtun genocide.
Why is it so difficult to admit that there is a country-wide Shia genocide by Deobandi terrorists of all ethnic backgrounds (including Pashtuns, Punjabis, Balochs etc), the same takfiri Deobandi terrorists (variously named as TTP, ASWJ, LeJ, JeM etc) who are also killing Sunni Barelvis, moderate Deobandis, Christians, Hindus, Ahmadis etc.
Only today, three Shia professionals were target killed in two separate incidents in Karachi while yesterday in Kohat at least 10 Shia Muslims were butchered along with two ordinary/moderate Deobandis by the Deobandi ASWJ-TTP terrorists. Also today, there was an attack on Iran’s consulate in Peshawar and the sectarian motives of the attack were clearly stated by the perpetrator Major Mast Gul Deobandi of ASWJ-ISI.
There is a consistent attempt by many right-wingers (Islamists) and secular activists to hide, dilute or rationalize the common Deobandi identity of terrorists across Pakistan. It is not in Pashtun or Punjabi ethncity, the evil resides in Deobandi ideology which is now as intolerant and violent as is the Saudi Salafi-Wahhabi ideology.
From the Banu Umayya tribe of Arabian peninsula to the Pashtun tribes of Pakistan and Afghanistan, it is not the Arab or Pashtun ethnicity which is to be blamed. It is the violent, intolerant ideology (Sufyanism of Umayyads, Takfirism of Khawarij, Salafism of Muhammad ibn Abd al-Wahhab and Deobandism of Pakistan/India) that is responsible for brutal beheadings, organ-eatings and graphic inhumanities against non-Deobandi, non-Salafi Muslims and non-Muslims. Those who are ignoring the inherent violent nature of the Salafi and Deobandi ideologies are missing the whole point. Of course, the US, Saudi and Pakistani intelligence agencies played a key role in prostituting the Deobandi and Salafi ideologies and clerics for their strategic agendas but the very selection of these prostitutes was not a coincidence.
There’s a difference between “almost all terrorists are Deobandis” and “all Deobandis are terrorists”.
We do NOT claim that all Deobandis are terrorists. Nor do we say that they are only killing Shias. We say that in almost all incidents of Shia genocide and Sunni Barelvi genocide, Deobandi terrorists are involved. They are also a dominant player in massacres of other communities. For example, Deobandi terrorists were involved in the Ahmadiyya massacre in Lahore (May 2010) and Christian massacres in Lahore (2008-13) and Peshawar (2013). They also kill those very few Deobandi clerics who challenge TTP or ASWJ’s power, discourse or agendas. When ordinary Deobandi folks are killed in the streets or markets by Deobandi terrorists, they are not killed due to their faith. When Shias, Sunni Barelvis, Christians or Ahmadis are killed, they are specifically targetted due to their faith.
Statistical data proves that Deobandis have the most dominant role in terrorism.
“The network of sectarian violence in Pakistan has its roots in the Deobandi sect. Syed Ejaz Hussain, who is a deputy inspector general of police, for his doctoral thesis in criminology at the University of Pennsylvania analysed the demographic and religious characteristics of the 2,344 terrorists arrested between 1990 and 2009 in Pakistan*. These terrorists were the ones whose cases were forwarded to the courts after the police were satisfied of their guilt based on their preliminary investigation. The sectarian breakdown of the arrested terrorists revealed that more than 90 per cent were of the Deobandi sect. An ethnic breakdown revealed that 35 per cent arrested terrorists were Pashtuns who in fact make up only 15 per cent of Pakistan’s population. http://www.dawn.com/news/664029/an-incurable-disease”
Unless this data is replaced by a more credible data, we will have to use it. Anecdotal evidence to contrary has limited value.
Moreoever, the victim communties’ (Sunni Barelvis and Shias in particular) own accounts or/and databases too point towards the Deobandi identity of perpetrators of violence. Check for example the Shia genocide database maintained by Shaheed Foundation, SK, LUBP etc. The Subalterns do speak!
Lastly, some friends assert that “The fact is not all Deobandis are involved in this genocide.” Our question is: are all Sunnis or all Salafis/Wahabis involved in this genocide? Is there a more precise identifier and marker than Deobandi terrorists (or takfiri Deobandi terrorists)?
Can anyone enlighten, please?
Aaamir Hussaini’s comments on a related thread:
First of all, some friends got wrong from our whole debate that we want to set up an equation Deobandi=terrorist,our stance is that in Pakistan terrorism against Shia ,moderate deobandis, sunni Barelvis and others is being waged by deobandi organizations and deobandi terrorist like SSp/ASWj,TTP and others and some right wingers and secular leftists,liberals,nationalists never mention this identity and they frequently use Sunni,or just salfi or just alone Takfiris but when they talk about collateral damage in NWA then they condmn army general as punjabi generals etc and call killed persons as Pushtun genocide etc then why they conceal deobandi takfiri identity of TTP,SSP,LeJ,
It is a fact that among there remained present always a tendency of Takfiri Khawarijs in Deobandi School of thoughts from it emergence.I do not think that you are unaware of inclination of family of Shah Wali Allah towards theology of Salfi Wahabi-ism and first it fully groomed and saw we in more mature form first time in grand son of Shah Wali Allah Ismaiel Dehlivi who wrote very disputed book “Power of Faith”(تقویۃ الایمان)that was actually another edition of Book of Toheed of Muhammad Bin Abdulwahab founder of Wahabi-ism.Majority of religious scholars of that time condemned molvi Ismael and his Khawariji Ideas but deobandi clerics including Molvi Rasheed Gungohi and many others admired him and adopted his ideas.
Istill never find a single name in Deobandi Clerics from small names to big names who ever called TTP,ASWj,LeJ etc as non deobandi misguided and Takfri Khawarijis but i always find them seeking excuses for their terrorists acts and never accepted that in them this is Takfiri and Khawarji tendency which has no relation with deobandi school of thought,
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pata nai kia bany ga es pakistan ka.
pata nai kia bany ga es pakistan ka.
It is a fact that among there remained present always a tendency of Takfiri Khawarijs in Deobandi School of thoughts from it emergence.I do not think that you are unaware of inclination of family of Shah Wali Allah
ولی خان کے سیکولر ازم کا بھانڈا کیسے پھوٹا – صدائے اہلسنت https://lubpak.com/archives/336631
Role of Khan Abdul Ghaffar Khan in the spread of Deobandi ideology in Pashtuns https://lubpak.com/archives/306211
عوامی نیشنل پارٹی کے مرحوم قائد ولی خان کے وہابی نظریات – از عبدل نیشاپوری https://lubpak.com/archives/336527
Innocent Deobandis, manipulative Pakistan army! https://lubpak.com/archives/331858
ANP and ASWJ condemn massacre of Shias in Peshawar: Do you know what’s common? https://lubpak.com/archives/331806
ANP’s discourse on Pashtun genocide – by Abdul Nishapuri https://lubpak.com/archives/315869
Conversation: Why are Pashtun nationalists mute on Deobandi ideology and identity of TTP-ASWJ terrorists? https://lubpak.com/archives/306125
Farhat Taj Since its exit from power there are less number of attacks on the ANP ranks and files. I was actually referring to the total number of people killed in FATA and KP since 2002. That would, my hunch is that, include more Dewbandis than others. This is of course not to belittle the killing of shias.http://videosdj.com/view/usa-new-car-dealershipr-auto-car-video-watch-online Actauly in FATA and KP every one who is opposed to the terrorists have come under attack regardless their faith. Take for example, the over 1000 tribal leaders killed in FATA. Majority of them is clearly Dewbandi, I understand.
A call for transnational jihad: A comment – Abdul Nishapuri https://lubpak.com/archives/319616
Hamas, an ally of Al Nusra – by Abdul Nishapuri
Ashura of Muharram, a burden on Pakistani economy? – by Abdul Nishapuri https://lubpak.com/archives/325990
#YemenUnderAttack: Pakistanis condemn Saudi Arabia’s illegal attack on Yemen – Abdul Nishapuri
The discourse of Shia genocide in Pakistan and the role of Abdul Nishapuri and social media: A brief historical account
Shia Genocide Database: A detailed account of Shia killings in Pakistan from 1963 to 31 May 2015 – by Abdul Nishapuri https://lubpak.com/archives/132675
Sunni Sufi genocide: Database of Sunni killings in Pakistan by Deobandi terrorists – by Abdul Nishapuri https://lubpak.com/archives/323499
The discourse of Shia genocide in Pakistan and the role of Abdul Nishapuri and social media: A brief historical account https://lubpak.com/archives/333622
ANP’s discourse on Pashtun genocide – by Abdul Nishapuri https://lubpak.com/archives/315869
Sabeen Mahmud’s murder by Deobandi ASWJ terrorists and the ISI-bashing elitist liberals – by Abdul Nishapuri https://lubpak.com/archives/336727
Conversation: Why are Pashtun nationalists mute on Deobandi ideology and identity of TTP-ASWJ terrorists? https://lubpak.com/archives/306125
What can Pakistan and the entire world learn from Pakistani Shias? – Abdul Nishapuri https://lubpak.com/archives/33848
A historical reserach on South Asian fanatics, Pashtuns and Deobandism https://lubpak.com/archives/325051