“… under the Difa-e-Pakistan banner that is being tightly controlled by the ISI”. Is there any serious evidence of this – beyond hearsay and rumours? I sincerely would like to see this evidence.

تحریک جعفریہ بھی تو مشرف نے قلعدم کی تھی اور اب وہ تحریک اسلامی نام سے کام کررہی ہے، آخر ساجد نقوی کی اس جماعت کے خلاف بات کرتے ہوئے لبرل انتہاپسندوں کی زبان کیوں کچھ نہیں نکلتا

@SGN

Rumours suggest that this crowd has been put up to this tamasha by a section of the establishment. I hope that is not true. I know many senior officers who have, on multiple occasions, spoken to me about the rising threat of extremism. The military has lost too many young officers and men. It would be a scandal most scandalous if this were true. But some of the characters in this fake DPC are known to be close to the establishment. What should one think of that.

http://tribune.com.pk/story/336328/is-this-a-joke/

کالعدم تنظیموں کا معاملہ…جرگہ…سلیم صافی

دفاع پاکستان کونسل کے پیچھے کسی اسلامی ملک کا ہاتھ ہے‘ پاکستانی اسٹیبلشمنٹ کا یا پھر وہ اس میں شامل جماعتوں اور شخصیات کی اپنی ایجاد ہے؟اس حوالے سے کوئی حتمی رائے نہیں دی جا سکتی۔ کونسل اور اس میں شامل بعض شخصیات کے ماضی کو ذہن میں رکھا جائے تو یہ گمان ہوتا ہے کہ دال میں کچھ کالا ضرور ہے ۔ مولانا سمیع الحق صاحب نے کئی سال قبل بھی دفاع افغانستان کونسل قائم کی تھی جو حملے سے قبل امریکہ کو دھمکیاں دے رہی تھی لیکن پچھلے دس سال میں‘ جبکہ طالبان اور افغان قربانیاں دے کر افغانستان کا دفاع کررہے تھے تو یہ کونسل بھی غائب تھی اور اس کے قائد بھی متحدہ مجلس عمل کے دیگر رہنماؤں کی طرح داخلی سیاست میں مگن تھے۔ گویا جب افغانستان پر حملہ نہیں ہوا تھا تو دفاع افغانستان کونسل سرگرم عمل تھی لیکن جب اس پر حملہ ہوگیا تو وہ کونسل غائب ہوگئی اوراس کے بطن سے متحدہ مجلس عمل نکل آئی۔گزشتہ دس سالوں میں پاکستان میں ڈرون حملے بھی ہورہے تھے‘ یہاں کی حکومتوں نے مکمل طور پر امریکہ کے آگے گھٹنے بھی ٹیک دیئے تھے۔ ہندوستان کا رویہ بھی نہایت جارحانہ تھا ۔ وہ دو مرتبہ اپنی افواج پاکستانی سرحدوں پر بھی لے آیا اور شاید اس وقت اسی طرح کے کسی کونسل کی زیادہ ضرورت تھی تو اس وقت کسی کو پاکستان کے دفاع کے لئے کونسل کی تشکیل کا خیال نہ آیا لیکن اب جبکہ امریکہ افغانستان سے نکل رہا ہے،اس کے مقابلے میں پاکستانی اسٹیبلشمنٹ بھی حسب استطاعت مزاحمت کررہی ہے‘ نیٹو سپلائی بھی بند کردی گئی ہے اور ہندوستان کے ساتھ بھی کشیدگی کم ہورہی ہے تو ایک بار پھر دفاع پاکستان کونسل کی بلی کو تھیلے سے نکال لیا گیا‘ جس کی وجہ سے مجھ سمیت اکثر پاکستانیوں کو شک ہے کہ دال میں کچھ کالا ضرورہے

http://jang.net/urdu/archive/details.asp?nid=596320

let’s at least consider the evidence. The feudalism favouritism has been written about extensively already. Shah Mehmood Qureshi, being so celebrated by the PTI means, those who serve under him as his subjects can hope for no relief in their toil. The problem that is still being ignored is the growing extremism. In the last few days, we have seen PTI leadership actively involved in entirely questionable activities that not only pay lip service to extremism but actively encourage it. The presence of PTI Vice-President Ijaz Chaudhry at the recent Difa-e-Pakistan rally in Lahore is not just a case of Imran Khan’s party “… presenting our view at DPC rallies” as the Tiger claims. If that was needed they could have simply made a press statement before or after the rally, miles away from it. If you spoke at the rally, then you endorse what was being said there. Sometimes things are just that simple. The PTI is not some idealistic MBA joining a tobacco firm to ‘change the system from the inside’. To make such claims is to treat the public like idiotic simpletons and that is just insulting. By participating in a rally in which a JuD leader calls a woman a “whore”, is a frightening endorsement of misogyny. To participate in a rally where a large portion of the audience belongs to a banned sectarian outfit notorious for killing and persecuting Shias is horrific appreciation of their agenda. To allow a leader like Ijaz Chaudhry to that rally, a man who has previously also attended major gatherings by the SSP, means that the PTI is basically in agreement with the SSP’s beliefs and message. The PTI defenders will claim that this is all an attempt to engage extremists to bring the same kind of change to their thinking that Imran Khan promises to bring to governance. Given that there has been no effort made in this regard at all, does not bode well for the promises of decreased corruption that are being made.
So when Imran Khan talks about a revolution, let’s remember, it is not the revolution you think. Which is why he doesn’t want you to think at all.

http://tribune.com.pk/story/336998/viva-la-what/

@SGN, It would be great if we lived in a world where such “facts” were easily available. Let us look at the DFC “leaders”:

Ijaz ul Haq: A career Pakistan army supporter,son of Zia ul Haq and always angling to be on the right side of the military establishment.

Hamid Gul: Ex-ISI chief

Malik Ishaq: flies around in army helicopters to negotiate with terrorists.

Hafiz Saeed: One of the most important assets of the military establishment

We could be the Ostrich and not state the obvious. However, in order for banned groups to operate with such impunity against the public and against the government cannot be possible without strong ISI support. Refer to Abbas Nasir or Khalid Ahmed (TFT) work and sectarian killers have often been freed after being captured by the government on the orders of the military which still views them as assets to be used in India and Afghanistan.

Yes, there are no ISI expense reciepts to verify who bore the catering costs for these rallies but hopefully, you get my drift.

Thanks @Shazia Baloch.

All the people you have mentioned are despicable in my opinion for various words and deeds even prior to this DFC drama – with Malik Ishaq taking the cake for the sheer numbers he has murdered.

I object to your implication that Malik Ishaq is being accorded the luxury of using military helicopters as transportation. Whatever credible reports I’ve seen on that topic state nothing more than that he was made to negotiate with the GHQ attackers in 2009. He was taken from jail and brought back to jail. Any such hostage situation the world over would compel authorities to use people like Ishaq to help negotiate with those who are ideologically close to him.

On the question of why these DFC rallies are being allowed to happen, Rehman Malik has asked for the tightening of laws to prevent banned groups from re-emerging. I don’t see any reason to not take his statement at face value: http://tribune.com.pk/story/331724/powerless-to-stop-rallies-by-banned-groups-malik/

Look I’m not trying to say the military in Pakistan has its hands clean. I think the use of proxies in India and Afghanistan was a policy, and in my opinion that policy no longer has any future, and any two-bit War College graduate can see that. The lack of foresight for the blowback caused by these policies is a major blunder.

However what I refuse to do is to accuse the ISI and military establishment without sufficient evidence of direct or indirect complicity in terrorist activities that have killed tens of thousands of citizens. I’m not looking for “expense receipts.” But I am also looking for stronger evidence than has been suggested so far.

The question is too significant to be left to “belief” or “opinion” because those inevitably (and naturally) come with political bias.

The explicit and implicit accusations against the ISI and the military that has been made on this site repeatedly is too serious to not be acted on. If the accusations are true, the Pakistan armed forces should be disbanded immediately, because they are a threat to the people of the country. Nothing less would be morally sufficient. The accusations if true make reform of the armed forces impossible. Are we willing to stand up for that given what we know at this stage?

Given that serious implication, any accusation should be supported by way more evidence than has been given so far.
However, that level of evidence – far beyond hearsay, rumours, and anecdotes – has not been provided.

Thanks @Wajid Kazmi. Fascinating debate. I will address a few points:

1) If the incidents that Mr. Abbas Nasir reports are true (one “reported” and one “unreported”) they are disturbing and should be investigated by journalists like him. And the reason is we don’t know whether the arrested suspects were freed by (those who claimed to be) “intelligence agents”. Everything else in Mr. Abbas Nasir’s article is his opinion about the military’s over-bearing shadow over the Pakistani internal security apparatus and political system which I agree is undeniable.

2) Right after the part you quoted from Ejaz Haider’s article, he says the following – stating for what it’s worth that allegations fly in all directions.

“Hazara clerics seem convinced the LeJ is supported by some elements in the establishment. This is the terrain of allegations which is utilised by all sides in Balochistan. The Deobandi side alleges that former General-President Pervez Musharraf had a policy of placing Shia officers in key positions, another allegation.

The problem with these allegations is that they are based on the group’s own narrative and draw on some elective fact(s) to weave a tapestry that is then mouthed and written about regularly until it is accepted as the gospel truth within that group.”

(By the way I’m not sure what the label ‘pro-establishment’ means. Heck no one’s ever defined ‘establishment’ sufficiently, but that’s a discussion for another time).

3) I repeat my statement about the seriousness of the accusations, accusations that are too serious to just write about, and accusations that I am not convinced about. If as you suggest, there is a policy established by the army high command to pursue the “Jihad Enterprise” and there is awareness that “the massacre of Shias, Barelvis is a collateral damage, a logical outcome of the Jihad Enterprise.”, then every Pakistani has a moral obligation to rise up and demand that the entire institution be castrated or abolished.
(By the way, as a side note, it has been more that a little amusing that though the label peace-loving and “sufi” has been attached to Barelvis as a whole, a lot of them do hero-worship the killer Mumtaz Qadri, and there is quite a big representation of them in the DFC).

4) Myra MacDonald has written quite an insightful article, but she seems to be going right down the middle as far as this debate is concerned i.e. what control does the military actually have over these elements.

@SGN

Here’s one investigative journalist who wrote on the links between Pakistan army (and navy) and LeJ-Al Qaeda etc, he was made an example!

Did your read Pakistan HRW director’s testimony? What more evidence do you need?

http://criticalppp.com/archives/58431

According to LUBP the terrorist is defined as follows:
a) Not a supporter of PPP
b) non Shia , non Ahmedi , non Christian , non hindu
c) strong belief in islam
d) have a nationalistic approach towards pakistan
e) willing to be shaheed to protect the homeland ( Pakistan )
f) strong opponent of drone attacks in pakistani territory
g) having any soft corner for pakistani army or forces

agree with Paki

we need a proper check and balance strategy to control the terrorism and made of improvised explosive devices.

The fundamental principles of the watch that you’re able to profit from starting off today.

The Ten MostOutrageous bag Secrets… And Approaches To Utilize them!

Great new men Book Presents Very Best Way To Rule The men World