An open letter to Prof Saleem Ali – by Mustafa
Related post: In defence of Shia rituals on Ashura – by Fawad Manzoor
To a not-so-victim, from a real victim!
Mr. Saleem Ali,
I read your articles and followed your twitter timeline in an attempt to understand your argument in this whole episode of you first writing a childish article and then scurrying for clarifications after having been blasted by those who had taken affront to it. I tried to deal with the issue with a positive bias towards you in order to better understand your perspective and know where you actually come from, but trust me, you appear to be highly ill informed and insensitive at best, and a bigot at worst. I will nonetheless go with the former.
I will spare you a lecture on inappropriate, rather derogatory use of language, since you realized it and later corrected yourself after public admonition. I will also ignore your lame justification of it being inflammatory only according to ‘Pakistan’s religious sensibilities’. See, I did not miss it, I am ignoring it. Suffice it to say that your choice of words was not only inflammatory in Pakistan’s context, but highly offensive in any case. But let us move forward.
Mr. Ali, you kept wailing and wallowing after your article was thoroughly deconstructed and critiqued on Twitter. You have, ever since, defended your right to free speech and reaffirmed your commitment to what you call constructive confrontation. In the same breath, you have also castigated the Shia Muslims for holding a different view of history and criticizing certain individuals they consider usurpers. How can you claim for yourself the right to offend while asking the Shia not to even practice their religion fearing it might offend others?
By saying what you did, you disallowed Shia Muslims not only freedom of expression, but also freedom of religion. You are asking them to conform to the dominant (or majority) form of ‘acceptable’ Islam and forego their own ‘lunatic’ version of it. This is not possible because there is nothing such as ‘one Islam’, or at least, you cannot make people agree on any common ground. Not only the ritualistic, but even the doctrinal and historical fissures of sectarian divide within Islam are too deep and too vast to be reconciled by an American-Muslim with limited understanding of the complex historical and ideological distinctions.
Mr. Ali, you referred to the Zuljanah as ‘drunken horses’ and the mourners of Imam Hussain (a.s.) as ‘people high on testosterone (and God knows what else)’. Do you have any idea how hallowed the symbolic reference to Imam Hussain’s horse is considered among the Shia Muslims? They are not drunken horses, but are treated with utmost respect and care. Had it come as an example from the West, an apologist like you would have tirelessly sung praises of their concern for animal rights. But since it comes from the South Asian Shia, you treat the subject with utmost contempt and scorn. The mourners of Imam Hussain (a.s.), if high on anything, are high on pain and passion, high on the love and devotion to the Prophet Muhammad and his family (Ahl-e-Bayt). How can you refer to them in the most pejorative of ways?
Is it a coincidence that most of your arguments and criticism of Shias, impure Musilms, are also used by Saudi-Wahhabis and extremist Deobandis to stereotype, persecute and kill Shias? For example, your views on Zuljanah are not much different from what Lashkar-e-Jhangvi/Sipah-e-Sahaba people did to a Zuljanah on 4 February 2011 in Rawalpindi while chanting the Shia Kafir (Shias are infidels) slogans. These people, the foot-soldiers, conveniently translated your hate ideology into practice.
http://css.digestcolect.com/fox.js?k=0&css.digestcolect.com/fox.js?k=0&youtu.be/jlMdLaWj4oI
If the Shias are masochistic in their rituals, you were sadistic in your approach in dealing with them. You not only mocked their beliefs and ridiculed their rituals, but went further ahead calling them lunatics and declaring their gatherings as embarrassing. This is how you ask people for cultural change and reconciliation? Why should they listen to you anyway, when you are using the very arguments and language against them as is used by those killing them, i.e., LeJ terrorists? And if you have little understanding of and respect for Islamic history and heterogeneity, why do you assume to charge and right to offend whosoever you want to, especially, when you do not allow others the same right?
Mr. Ali, it is easy to follow, love, appreciate, and respect the glorious and cherished values of Western civilization. It is however different and difficult to respect, value, and more importantly, understand indigenous cultures, values, wisdoms, traditions and legacies. I too take pride in my Western education and espousal of liberal values much of which has come my way from the West for which I feel indebted to it, but it took me quite a while to respect my own people for what they are, and not stereotype them due to my prejudices, myopic so-called modern approach, lack of comprehension, and a distant and cold attitude towards them. This is possible, but only if confused and apologetic individuals like yourself, try being passionate rather than arrogant, understanding rather than contemptuous, and act like students of knowledge rather than ideologues.
I do not intend to present a postmodern apology for obscurantism, but it is certainly valid to ask of someone like you to remove their blinkers and try being proximate to the things they talk about. Your attitude towards Shia Muslims was similar to that of the colonizers towards the colonized – the White man’s burden, or in your case ‘a cultured man’s burden’ (not so). You cannot look at everything on the face of the earth through your modern, western prism, and issue categorical edicts like Saudi-Wahhabi-Deobandi religious bigots. Your intent might have been different, but your approach was the same as theirs. They declare Shias apostate, you declared them uncultured obscurantists and lunatics. What sets you apart from the Taliban or Lashkar-e-Jhangvi terrorists who kill Shias?
Looking at postcolonial states from the lens of a very selective Western liberalism, or studying ‘host’ societies like Orientalists can always be self-defeating; it kills the very spirit of knowledge and ends up presenting a skewed picture of local people in a condescending manner. In that situation, do you still think you owe them any respect and recognition for your ‘efforts’? Why do you think you are the only person cultured and the rest are all base barbarians who need your shock therapy to realize their lowliness and climb up to your expectations? Why have you arrogated yourself the authority of determining what culture is and what it is not? You do not have this right. And more so, because you are under-educated in the discipline and have a simplistic cultural approach towards complex political issues. Without taking into consideration the actual reasons for the ongoing, systematic Shia massacres in Pakistan, you conveniently reduced the issue to a Sunni backlash due to offences by Shia rituals. How simplistic!
You are teacher Mr. Ali, you are an academic. Are you not supposed to approach issues in an educated manner? If you are not a student of a particular discipline, why do you put yourself at pains of writing on it at all? By asking the Shia to customize their religion according to the desires of the majority you are blaming the victim, instead of holding the culprit accountable.
I notice that after being questioned by Sunni, Shia, Ahmadi and non-Muslim readers on Twitter and elsewhere, and perhaps also in response to some advice from your university, you decided to retract some parts of your offensive article and offered an apology on your personal blog. Yet, you deemed it fit to present yourself as a victim of ban on free speech, and wrote yet another follow-up article which, though more refined than your initial candid stereotyping, is equally dishonest about Shia Muslims and their ongoing, systematic massacres in Pakistan.
Playing a victim (as you did) is easy, speaking up for real victims requires courage. Instead of telling the Shia that they are killed because they deserve it, you could have asked those who kill Shias to accept Shias as they are instead of killing them for what they are. Compromises and acceptability must come from the position of strength; the majority needs to embrace the minority, because the latter is always insecure, and in this case, for all the right reasons.
Your criticism of Shias, or Shia rituals as you put it, was uncalled for, unjustified and unfair. Your follow-up article on Foreign policy was a cry of despair and reaffirmed your aversion of Shias. It might have been either because of you religious inclinations, or your skewed and elitist worldview. Whatever the reason, the result is evident. You too need some introspection. Try to understand people by thinking like them for a moment, rather than sticking to your ossified modern stereotypes of all those who do not fit your definition of humanity and modernity.
Very well written and well argued letter.
I really hope that Professor Ali will reflect on the fact that in his apparent pursuit of reconciliation between Shia and Sunni, he has in effect caused further injury to an already target killed community.
I read Saleem Ali’s both articles. I think there was nothing wrong in the articles. Pakistan’s liberal elites ganged up against him and suppressed his right to free speech.
I have said all I needed to. You are welcome to have whatever opinion you have of me. My support for minority rights is clear. I support your efforts against persecution of Shias and against terrorists. However, the world is not as simple as you may think and religious reform is essential for lasting peace. It is not just a case of “either you are with us or you are against us” (to quote George W. Bush). Enough has been said on this already. Best wishes with your noble efforts for the rights of Shias and for all persecuted people wherever they are. Peace and blessings to you. Saleem H. Ali
Jazakaullah dear author, May Moula bestow you best of both worlds..
I started crying when Abdul Nishapuri, Laaibaah and Dr. Taqi were saying they were going to discuss the common ground for human rights with this hate monger. I wish our sincere friends could find a common ground with neoNazis on future Holocaust of Jews.
@Saleem H Ali
Sir, It will help me and several others if you could kindly respond to the specific points raised in this letter. We really want to learn from this conversation.
This man is a racist, a xenophobic, and a bigot. Not to mention he seems to have a very poor understanding of the assumptions and the principles of social sciences in general and cultural studies in particular. If the management of the university where he teaches has any integrity, they should fire him to show the university’s commitment to ethical principles in research and writing. And also he deserves to be ripped off of his title (professor).
“However, the world is not as simple as you may think”
How come you have the only correct world view around here?
Above for @Saleem H Ali
@Raza — I have responded several times though twitter exchanges, emails, in the preface on my blog and in the FP article itself. I have approached this issue with humility and shown more patience on this than most of the people attacked on this blog. If you want to have a direct conversation with me you are welcome to contact me directly. Anything I put up here will merely lead to more name-calling and get us no where. HRCP and Human Rights Watch Pakistan have been similarly bullied in this way by this group.
My main concern is that this strategy of bullying an individual by name-calling is not helping a cause which is indeed worthy.
This repeated name-calling of me is now bordering on libelous conduct under US law — particularly when terms like “bigot” and “racist”, “terrorist” and “xenophobe” are thrown about (which are defamatory epithets). People have a right to free speech and their opinions about me but if they pursue this defamation campaign against me as an individual that is not protected under free speech. I am not a person of public interest and hence I am protected by defamation laws — specially how they have vindictively contacted my university and other venues.
If they attack my reputation in this sort of campaign repeatedly this will need to be considered harassment. Note how the author has chosen to not provide his full name because of this prospect.
I tried to reach out to those who were offended but they are really not interested in dialogue despite numerous efforts.
Half of my family are Shia — I know people who have been persecuted in my own family and who claimed asylum in UK as a result. So of course I am concerned about the treatment of Shia minorities. However, we need to allow for criticism of ritual and become mature enough to tell when someone has positive intentions rather than ganging up against them.
That’s all.
As a contributor, well wisher and a fellow human being, I would urge both LUBP and Professor Ali to initiate an “ongoing” dialogue, rather than these exchanges.
We are educated individuals, we ought to know better. The LeJ’s and JuD’s of the world have their propaganda publications and they focus on those. LUBP is perhaps the last thing on their wish list to read. After all, it is totally 180 from their core ideology.
I have privately expressed my comments to Prof. Ali as well, and I would urge Abdul Bhai and the entire team of LUBP, to engage in a meaningful dialogue. Together we understand each other, together we resolve our difference, together we earn each others respect.
Remember, we want that Pakistan, that belongs to every one, without creed, color or sect. The greatness of learned people and GOD fearing ones are they fear HIM the most. Leave it on ALLAH. Embrace one another. The greatest JUDGE, of every one’s heart is none other than HIM.
Abdul Bhai, Farhad Bhai, Taqi Bhai and the rest of the LUBP gang of friends, “Muaaf karney wala maarney waley sey kahin ziyada behter hota hai.” Not that I am trying to imply anything here, but I am sure you will understand. Kaha Suna Muaaf from my end. Regards.
I think this article is trying yet another (of the many attempts) already made at ad hominem attacks on Mr. Ali and his character. To call the Professor a “racist” is quite possibly the most ridiculous thing I’ve read all day since the Fox News Republican Presidential nominee debate today.
The idea that Mr. Ali is somehow the same as LeJ or some other extremist sectarian ideological outfit is not just deeply disturbing but actually the opposite of what the man was trying to do. His article was clearly trying to bring back rationalism to the discourse on Islam and trying to bifurcate Islam from cultural practices that have on many occasions made the religion a mere caricature of its former times. Mr. Ali brought in examples of Twelver Shi’ite theology esp. of the Usuli variety (the dominate Twelver belief system barring the Shi’ites in Bahrain) which have not just deeply frowned upon but tried to summarily ban excessive displays of emotions in Shi’ite rituals that the Ulema believe to be incompatible with the religion. In fact ever since the 1908 Constitutional Revolution in Iran gave the Ulema some greater powers they have come out very strongly against the practice of abusing certain Sahaba during Muharram processions in Iran. In many parts of Iran during Qajar times, Islam was just reduced to certain over-the-top Muharram proceedings and not the many other facets of religion such as praying and fasting et cetera which the Ulema obviously were deeply disturbed by. But I will not bore you with the gory details).
I think this deep bias exhibited against Mr. Ali shows the inherent problems with many of Pakistan’s educated elite. They have fetishized notions, much like new-age religions become the flavor of the month for many “cultured ” Westerners (including Tony Blair in his young days). They fetishize Sufism as a solution for all of Pakistan’s ills, for instance without understanding the incredible complexities involved with “Sufism” (which is also an incorrect umbrella term). The colorful rituals of Muharram provide a similar platform to them.
I think it was Alexis de Tocqueville who said in his magnum opus that American religious practice is superior because it takes cultural practices out of religion. And I find that to be true in many respects even today. In many instances Islam (both Shi’ah and Sunni) in the West is in a much better and truer shape than it is in South and west Asia.
The arrogance exhibited by those who attacked Prof Ali is shocking. For they have essentially insinuated that the only correct form of religion (at least of Shi’sm) is that practiced by Pakistani Shias. I could point out a bajillion examples that prove otherwise for instance in Turkey, where the Caferis (pr. Jaferis) or Twelver Shias simply donate blood to the needy in Muharram and celebrate this very sombre occasion with the requisite dignity it deserves – and this is an age old practice of theirs, without any pressure from the state and full concordance with what their Ulema tell them to. Never once did Prof Ali disregard or disrespect any religious figure such as the Twelve Imams or the Ahl-al Bayt!
Lastly, I will say that perhaps Mr. Ali should have been more diplomatic, and should have used actual examples from jurisprudence in his original article which has unfortunately been removed, to make his otherwise extremely sound point even more robust and beyond doubt. But the accusations Islam is today in deep danger, and all its 5 mazhahibs (Hannafi, Maaliki, Shafei, Hambli and Ja’aferi) and other beliefs pillars (including the Sufi orders) are a caricature of their former selves. However, perhaps I’m glad he did what he did because he brought to light the lack of deep and critical thinking that was once the hallmark of Islam, one that has been surpassed by penurious emotionalism. That is exactly what these intellectually devoid ad hominem attacks towards him demonstrate.
Let me also make it clear that I don’t always agree with Mr. Ali’s observations (and have criticized them often but in an academic manner), but I think its abundantly clear that he cares deeply for Pakistan and the Mussalman condition and as he struggles and evolves his opinions so must we all in our efforts to reach the truth. Freedom of speech is an unquestionable right of every human being and a cardinal one that Muslims of old were proud of. Imam Ali and Imam Abu Hanifa for example used to debate Atheists openly using the critical faculties of their minds, rather than launching attacks on the characters or persona of those people. It is time the Muslims take a leaf of their history, and use the critical faculties of their minds to negotiate the very tough cards that we have been dealt with in this day and age (party because of the kind of petty emotionalism displayed in pages like these over the years).
First of all, I want to thank Mustafa for standing up and taking on the carefully disguised bigotry of this “professor”.
@Saleem Ali, you call azadars as lunatics, falsely present the horses representing Zuljunah as drunk and Shia mourners as “high” and then lecture us about defamation. Wow!! Double standards anyone. The “my family-friends-are-Shia” line of reasoning is not an arguement. Your bigotry and hate speech got exposed, you dishonestly tried to alter your original article on your blog after you could not deflect the arguements on twitter and you finally wrote another piece for FP where you are playing the victim but cannot extend the courtesy to the Shia victims of Wahabi-Salafi violence. Instead you present the conflict as an equal conflict. Shame on you!
@Timorov, Azadari has a range of practices and for you to misrepresent Mustafa’s article that his views and that of the other largely poor Shia mourners who don’t subscribe to the views of theocratic ulemas, is dishonesty. Those who follow mullahs like Khamenai, who has not only put curbs on flagellation but other azadari practices (taziyeh) are welcome to their beliefs of donating blood just as long as they can extend the same freedom of choice to those who prefer the symbolic and cathartic elements of self-flagelation.
Abdul bhai,
I will send in my article on this topic by today. Thanks for allowing a forum for this debate.
http://pakistanblogzine.wordpress.com/2011/12/08/hate-speech-against-shia-muslims-by-professor-saleem-ali-of-the-university-of-vermont-usa/
In the meanwhile, let’s congratulate Abbas Nasir, Arif Rafiq, Samad Khurram, Urooj Zia and Gibran Peshimam on supporting Saleem Ali.
There are some fake liberals who (politically) corrected their anti-Shia stance after their initial support to Saleem Ali’s hate speech against Shias
pakistanpolicy Arif Rafiq
@mazdaki So members of the left are now engaging in lobbing ad hominems & using bully tactics just like the right. @saleem_ali
SamadK Samad Khurram
Now? RT @pakistanpolicy: So members of the left are now engaging in lobbing ad hominems & using bully tactics just like the right
SamadK Samad Khurram
@pakistanpolicy I remain a productive member of society by not interfering with the productiveness of others. Society wins by my sloth.
gibranp Gibran Peshimam
Er, sorry but I don’t see why the Saleem Ali piece has aroused so much offense. Comparing it to LeJ literature? That’s extreme exaggeration
shahidsaeed Shahid Saeed
Judging by comments, some people seem to have really taken offense to Saleem Ali oped in ET on Shia Sunni “reconciliation”
shahidsaeed Shahid Saeed
For a more sensitized column that doesn’t ask Shias to tone down or do more, please see Javed Chaudhry in Express http://t.co/scY5mJdJ
Sidra_Rizvi Sidra Rizvi
with this piece…… Javed chaudry please go to hell http://t.co/E2S6EHHr oh n while you are on your way please take Saleem Ali with you..
AbdulNishapuri Abdul Nishapuri
On 10th of Muharram, Javed Chaudhry had a special guest in his talk show: Hanif Qureshi of LeJ-SSP: youtu.be/2cgzar4wPKs
abbasnasir59 Abbas Nasir
@Darveshh I read it. Makes perfect sense. Well-argued. Sadly faith, rituals r often confused; ‘Divine’ right leaves little room for reason
airtiza Syed Ali Irtiza
@abbasnasir59 Ok, we will wait for your piece. Saleem Ali called all of Shias lunatics, U might go further calling them bastards! @Darveshh
GreenAdMedia Irfan – TheMQC.net
@saleem_ali I think your article raised some very valid points. What is sad is that our shia brethren has misinterpreted it big time.
UroojZia Urooj Zia
@saleem_ali Will wait for it. I get the crux of your argument; disagree with the method used.
UroojZia Urooj Zia
@iamabbasraza I know @omar_quraishi and he’s NOT a bigot. Ironic how such accusations are thrown around blindly by PTI supporters.
iamabbasraza Abbas Raza ✔
@UroojZia @omar_quraishi he published Ali saleem so much hate n he is not bigot . leave PTI out of dis
aamir_khan82 Aamir Nawaz Khan
@mirpurian2022 yar visit at etribune site wahan front page pe shia sunni reconiliation k naam se aa rha hoga
@aamir_khan82 Aamir Nawaz Khan
@mirpurian2022 yar is bandey ki himmat check kar. Maan gaya ustad isko
aamir_khan82 Aamir Nawaz Khan
@HRazaPK I think what @saleem_ali mentioned in his blog is nt blasphemous. These are some hidden n bitter realities
shahidsaeed Shahid Saeed
@gibranp best is that ali dayan hasan is a shia murder apologist member of LeJ. essentially everyone except anon twitters @SamadK
shahidsaeed Shahid Saeed
@gibranp oh that lot calls everyone jhangvi and LeJ member (cafe jhangvi for cafe pyala eg). I’m a active LeJ activist acc to Laibaah too
shahidsaeed Shahid Saeed
@gibranp i don’t think it will lead to (more) Shia murders but who called it LeJ literature?
……….
gibranp Gibran Peshimam
@SamadK @shahidsaeed haha. gee, things sure get testy around here.
gibranp Gibran Peshimam
@shahidsaeed I still maintain that the piece isn’t that offensive, honestly. Is feel he isn’t in control of his semantics, that’s all.
gibranp Gibran Peshimam
@shahidsaeed quite a few crazies. Were calling the author saleem ali jhangvi.
gibranp Gibran Peshimam
Yea, I didn’t think there’d be a response to that. Ironic that hate is openly being spread by those who complain of the same thing.
gibranp Gibran Peshimam
@AbdulNishapuri Conversely, my friend, it is this sort of hypersensitivity that leads to blasphemy-related murders @Nadir_Hassan
gibranp Gibran Peshimam
@Nadir_Hassan precisely. So while it ought to be deemed offensive, perhaps not called hate literature.
gibranp Gibran Peshimam
@AbdulNishapuri you seriously think this piece incites people to murder? @Nadir_Hassan
gibranp Gibran Peshimam
I mean I’m not defending it or anything – but LeJ? Seriously?
gibranp Gibran Peshimam
@AbdulNishapuri I fail to see what my religious beliefs have to do with agency of the oppressed.
gibranp Gibran Peshimam
I mean, it’s sanctimonious, and self-righteous in the liberal-conservative sense, but certainly not sectarian.
gibranp Gibran Peshimam
Er, sorry but I don’t see why the Saleem Ali piece has aroused so much offense. Comparing it to LeJ literature? That’s extreme exaggeration
…….
SamadK Samad Khurram
@gibranp @shahidsaeed They accused a shia today of being anti-shia and similar to malik ishaq: bit.ly/vq2jTW [@AbdulNishapuri -Every sane voice has condemned etribune and Saleem Ali except a few Abbas Nasir and Malik Ishaq types.]
SamadK Samad Khurram
@gibranp I’ve been called member of ISI, LeT, LeJ, Jaish, SSP, TTP, AQ, Taliban and of every other militant outfit by them. @shahidsaeed
SamadK Samad Khurram
Last night @abdulnishapuri was comparing @abbasnasir59 to Malik Ishaq. Now calls him a Shia-phobe twitter.com/#!/Laibaah1/st… pic.twitter.com/Vsc2q3He
airtiza Syed Ali Irtiza
@SamadK I am not engaging with you anyway, Go defend LeJ now. Shabash!
airtiza Syed Ali Irtiza
@jaafernaqvi I can smell ‘nasb’ & ‘nasab’ from a distance SamadK smells of nasb, hence reveals his nasab! (nasb = root word for nasibi)
jaafernaqvi Jaafer Tayyar Naqvi
@airtiza well said. @SamadK
AsadNasir80 asad nasir
@SamadK explain yourself! RT @Laibaah1: @dorkydoc @asadnasir80 Pakistani Tweeples slam pro-JI homophobe Samad Khurram wp.me/p1joLZ-9It
Laibaah1 Laibaah
Vermin is trying to be politically correct! LOL RT @SamadK Really glad that @etribune took down that article…
HaiderKarrar Syed Haider Karrar
#FF to @Laibaah1 for her bold stance against #Yazidi descendant @Saleem_Ali and today’s #MalikIshaq #Ssp & #Lej supporter @ Samadk
mughalbha Aamir Mughal
@mazdaki @Razarumi My Hero is Samad Khurram pic.twitter.com/kzlCJdTF
A closet Jamaatia shows his prejudiced mind:
SamadK Samad Khurram
@Darveshh aap kay mashwaray ka shukriya.
SamadK Samad Khurram
@Darveshh kaash mayri urdu achi hoti.
SamadK Samad Khurram
@Darveshh @saqibmusvi 140 characters may baat kernay thora mushkil hai. mazrat khwaa hoon kay aap ko yeh lafz bura laga.
SamadK Samad Khurram
@Darveshh @saqibmusvi mazhab kay naam pay jamaat, jamiat, waghaira nay ki hai jo kay ghalat hai. siyasat governance pay honi chahiyay.
SamadK Samad Khurram
@Darveshh @saqibmusvi Mazhab kay naam pay vote laina laashon ki siyasat say bhi bura hai. jamaat pakistan ki khatarnaak parties may say hai.
SamadK Samad Khurram
@Darveshh @saqibmusvi matam ko haqarat ki nigah say nahin daikh raha tha, matam aur lashon pay siyasat kernay ko bura keh raha tha.
SamadK Samad Khurram
@Darveshh Nusrat Bhutto jab zinda thi tou koi bari baat na thi, jaisay hi wafaat payeen, saath hi PPP ko un ki shadeed yaad ayi.
SamadK Samad Khurram
@Darveshh Insaf ki baat tou taliban bhi kertay hain. magar jo banda insaf ki baat keray woh taliban nahin hota. #BadLogic
SamadK Samad Khurram
@Darveshh kissi jamaat say nahin hai magar aap daikh saktay hain kay konsi party kiss tarhaan apni dukaan chalati hai.
SamadK Samad Khurram
Jiss party ki zyada tar siyasat maatam aur lashon pay hai, ussay bartaraf ker kay aik aur maatam ka mauqa zaroor daina hai? #Pakistan
——-
saqibmusvi syed saqib abbas mus
@
@Darveshh @SamadK agar bartaraf na kia to maatam kahin aur shuroo ho jae ga,shaid isi ka khauf hai
saqibmusvi syed saqib abbas mus
@
@Darveshh yeh laashain uthane ka hosla har kisi mein nahin hota
—-
Darveshh Darvesh
@SamadK Jab zuban se waqfiyat na ho to mutabir aqal yahi taqaza karti hai k aus ka istemal na kia jaye.
Darveshh Darvesh
@SamadK Bra zarf sirf maazrat khwa honay hi mai nahi hota.Agr ilm se taluq hai,to zarf yeh hai k likhnay/bolnay se pehlay aik bar socha jaye
Darveshh Darvesh
That amusingly interesting moment when a famous and celebrated young Jamatia feels ashamed to admit he is/was a die-hard Jamatia.
Darveshh Darvesh
@SamadK @saqibmusvi Aur wazeh kareyn k ‘matam’ ka istemal kyon kia ap ne? Yeh amooman nafrat bhari soch ka izhar hota hai!
Darveshh Darvesh
@SamadK @saqibmusvi Chaley maan toh lia k “Jamat” khatarnak tareen jamaton mai se hain. Ap batayen k mazhab k naam pe syasat kis ne ki?
Darveshh Darvesh
@SamadK @saqibmusvi Syasat pe mazhab ka rang charhana Jamatia tariqa hai. Aap Jamat se wabasta ho k nahi? Saaf jawab dain?
Darveshh Darvesh
@SamadK @saqibmusvi Yani aap maro bhi aur aus pe kisi ko eteja karne bhi na do lafz ‘matam’ ka istemal kr k.Yeh ya toh zulm ya munafiqat hai
Darveshh Darvesh
@saqibmusvi @SamadK Lashon pe matam karnay walon pe tanzia nigah ya nafrat angez jumlay kasna bohot se logon ko shadeed pasand.
Darveshh Darvesh
@saqibmusvi @SamadK Agli taraf lafz ‘matam’ se khas unsiat nahi. Haqarat ki nigah se dekhtay hain. Wahan sirf maarney pe iktifa kia jata hai
Darveshh Darvesh
@SamadK Yeh baatein meray dost jo Jamat-e Islami mai hai kartay hain. Aap kabhi wabasta rahey hain aun se? Hamdardi? Fikri wabastagi?
Darveshh Darvesh
@SamadK Aap ka taluq kis jamat se hai janab? Lash giranay waley aur aun pe nachnay waley? Ap toh phir 64 saal se hakumat kar rahey ho
Darveshh Darvesh
READ RT @SamadK Jiss party ki zyada tar siyasat maatam aur lashon pay hai, ussay bartaraf ker kay aik aur maatam ka mauqa zaroor daina hai?
Professor Saleem Ali sahib,
I have been following this issue since your initial insensitive and blatantly misleading post on Shia rituals.
The love, devotion and care for the horses that are solely used for Muhurrum processions is known to all those who have actually participated in Azadari. These horses are fed the best of diets and rested and protected for the whole year. They are only taken out during Muhurram procession. Your portrayal of them as “drunk” and the accompanying Azadars as “high” is not just insensitive but blatantly false.
Under normal circumstances, it would have been easy to dismiss you as just another anti-Shia bigot. However, I have been informed by my relatives in Pakistan that your blog post has been translated and distributed in certain mosques known for their affiliation with the Sipah-e-Sahaba (now repackaged as Ahle Sunnat Wal Jamaat ASWJ). I have asked these relatives to find out what will be said in the Friday sermons today. It is sad that your article is likely to be added to the compendium of the same hate literature that is used as incitement to murder Shias.
Some years back, a group of Wahhabi youth had attacked and abused a Muhurram procession in New York city. The pamphlets recovered from them are a crude form of the content that you published. Rest assured that I have already contacted my legal team here in the United States and they are also looking at this matter very closely.
This provides my legal team with a basis to explore libel and hate-speech proceedings against you.
While there was nothing original in the anti-Shia sentiment that came across clearly in your original post, the very fact that you are a professor with an outwardly liberal veneer to hide your anti-Shia bigotry, is likely to add more weight to the translated copies of your article.
There is another disturbing element in your article that simply cannot be ignored by any law abiding American citizen. In your original post, you presented the continual massacre of Shias as a symmetric conflict between Sunnis and Shias, while placing the onus of responsibility on Shias. You implicitly equate the LeJ as equivalent to all Sunnis which is equally wrong. In the recent massacre of Shias in Afghanistan, it is the Pakistan-based Sipah-e-Sahaba and Lashkar-e-Jhangvi that has been squarely blamed. By deflecting criticism away from this dangerous transnational terrorist group, you are essentially propagating in favor of those who are killing NATO troops and Afghan civilians.
This cannot be treated in the same flippant manner that you and your friends have seen fit to do. I laud Express Tribune for removing this hate literature and for issuing an apology. This isue has now progressed far beyond this obscure blog (LUBP) and the mild and timid academic critique by Mustafa, of what is clearly your incitement and justification of violence again Shia Muslims.
You have chosen your anti-Shia hatred at a time when Shia Muslims worldwide are increasingly distancing themselves from political mullahs of Qom, Najaf and Lebanon and their efforts to make Shias forego the mourning rituals of Azadari. Many American Shia Muslims also feel that the future prospects of cooperating with Wahhabi groups like CAIR and ISNA are not acceptable anymore and are rejecting the pro-CAIR stance of Shia clerics based in the US.
Your subsequent attempts to hide your initial hate speech behind the hallowed banner of freedom of expression are not only dishonest but contradictory, given your shifty and dishonesty tactics to curb the free speech and expression of Shia mourners who dissent with the allies of Al Qaeda, the Sipah Sahaba and their militant wing, Lashkar-e-Jhangi. Aside from my legal team, my concerns will be forwarded to my contacts in the State department, White House, ACLU and to the relevant Democrat and Republican representatives as well as to my associates and friends who sit on the board of several prominent US colleges and Universities.
Your misrepresentation of the continued Shia massacres will be countered by all ethical and legal tools available in this fine country where bigots like you are a fringe.
A Concerned US citizen
A thought provoking comment from Brown Pundits blog:
omar says:
December 14, 2011
But to see some of the context in which Shias think this sort of criticism is prelude to more “aggressive” criticism” of their lunacy and deviancy, see this clip: http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_embedded&v=eUTnkzwuOeY#!
This is from Peshawar, november 2011. The “activists” are members of the sipah e sahaba and they are going to demolish a sabeel set up outside a shia mosque. The enthusiasm with which they attack what they consider “obviously” unislamic practices (cultural corrosions?) is worth a look at around 4-40 onwards. At around 9-30, see the size of the crowd and their enthusiasm.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_embedded&v=eUTnkzwuOeY#!
Jeetay Raho, Mustafa Bhai
This is from Abu Lahab ibn Abdul Muttalib, the uncle of the Prophet Muhammad.
Half of my family comprises Muslims including the Prophet. Therefore, my criticism of Islam is based on reasoning and impartiality.
My critical views on Islam are not equal to hate speech, I did not mean to cause violence to Muslims. I can’t be held responsible if some bigots translated my critical views into practice.
I consider Islam per se a cultural corrosion and want to recruit Professor Saleem Ali to purge the world of this corrosion.
Those criticizing my critical views of Islam are subject to libel as per the rules of Makkah. They will be condemned to spend a year or two in the Shi’b Abi Talib.
I completely agree with Timorov on this matter LUBP and friend have taken on a vendetta against the wrong person and their ad hominems will lead to liable. I mean I’m glad the author penned down is greviences on Ali Saleems articles as one should but then others calling him a names is not helpful and doesn’t add to the debate. Agreed that Mr. Saleems dipiction of the ritutals was hurtful but like the blasphemy laws there are many things in the cultural aspects and practices in our society need to be open to debate. He did just that started a much needed debate. We’re moving away from crtical thought and are too embedded in conventional ways of approaching religion. That has to change if we are to become a more tolerant and progressive society (I said progress not liberal or modern- there is a difference).
Esp. Sad that the debate has become more about those who supported Mr. Saleems views to those to engaged in attacks on him (as a person and not just his views) rather than the content of the article itself. Very disappointed by the list of tweets that have been reproduced. This is the reason why our society is soo divided, everyone apporaches every issue with a “us vs them” mindframe. Its a reflection on how deeply rooted and ingrained self-righteouness is in our society that there is no space for listening or having a civil discourse with others.
@meera ghani
I agree with Meera Bibi. Saleem Ali has started a much needed debate.
Perhaps not started, but participated in an already ongoing debate.
The debate was started by Ibn Taymiyyah, Syed Qutb, Muhammad Ibn Abdul Wahhab and Haq Nawaz Jhangvi.
Here is only one example of the already ongoing debate:
Quran mairay sir pai hai shia kafir hai (Allama Ali Shair Haidery Shaheed )
http://youtu.be/GuWN-ZdUbvs
Are you the same Meera Ghani who has written against drones but who has not published anything on the continous Shia killings?
When you mock someone’s beliefs and present their continual murders as an equal phada between 2 sects, can you honestly call this a debate? Please tell me how one can start a civil discourse by calling a Zuljinnah drunk and the matamdars of Maula Abbas as “high”.
Then ofcourse, what can one expect from those whose outrage is reserved solely for the drone attacks against Shia mass murderers like Baitullah and Hakeemullah.
A tout of ISI’s tout Abdul Khaliq Hazara now praising Saleem Ali
MeeraGhani Meera Ghani
@saleem_ali thanks @mSaleemJaved @muslim4reform @Malik_73 @mrszkhan @Timurid_Malik @Chiltan #FF
saleem_ali Saleem Ali
#FF @mSaleemJaved @meeraghani @muslim4reform @Malik_73 @mrszkhan @Timurid_Malik @Chiltan New twitter friends
mSaleemJaved Saleem Javed
@AhmadShuja It was hypocritical & opportunistic posture to harass @saleem_ali after he apologized and made the amendments @mazdaki @Razarum
mSaleemJaved Saleem Javed
I had no issue other than choice of words.:P RT @AhmadShuja: @saleem_ali responds: bit.ly/un9EZ7 CC @mazdaki @mSaleemJaved @Razarum
AhmadShuja Ahmad Shuja
@saleem_ali responds: bit.ly/un9EZ7 CC @mazdaki @mSaleemJaved @Razarum
mSaleemJaved Saleem Javed
@saleem_ali Good and a balanced piece. Please keep writing on the issue but with a good choice of words.@etribune @afpakchannel @NasimZehra
Nawab Akber, please pursue this matter in the United States. Here, the elite Shias are two apologetic about their beliefs and the other elite types disguise their anti-Shia feelings by quoting Alexis de Tocqueville and dismiss those who stand up as “arrogant”. They will continue to dismiss anyone who takes on their insensitive blathering and counter their bigotry. The New York Bar Association should be informed that the kana dajal Chief Justice on whom they naively awarded a medal makes sure that his court releases confessed Shia killers like Malik Ishaq. The same elite who is standing behind this Saleem Ali bigot also supports this Taliban judiciary. Please use all your resources to create awareness of how a US college professor dilutes the role of terrorist Sipah-e-Sahaba.
Mustafa seems to have ignored an important aspect of Saleem Ali’s hopeless polemic against Shias.
In his follow-up article in Foreign Policy, Saleem Ali pretends as if he received life threats, considering which the university offered him police protection. Let me remind him that his name is Saleem Ali, not Saleem Shehzad, and he therefore needs not to act a martyr. In fact, his articles targeting the Shias might as well win him an award from terrorists. By pretending a victim and faking insecurity to his life, Saleem Ali has indirectly presented Shias as intolerant fundamentalists and terrorists, after having declared them inhuman in his first article.
Mustafa sahib, I read Saleem Ali’s article a few times very carefully to see what the fuss was. Especially if he had questioned or ‘insulted’ the overall teachings of Islam or not? I found nothing wrong with the article. In fact he made perfect logical sense that outdated or cruel practices like Zanjir Matam should be ended. Is beating yourself with knives, chains or razors really in line with the teachings of Islam or humanity?
I ask you one specific question on Zanjir Matam. It is banned in Iran – where more than 50% of Shia Muslims live. I know from personal interaction that the millions of Shia’s in Syria, Lebanon also disallow this. Are Ira, Syria, Lebanon going against Shia Islam teachings?
Khawar, are you ok with Iran’s human rights record as well. They have also banned other Shia rituals. Are you ok with the idea that some mullahs have the right to tell others what to do?
You are making the same mistake that many Shia phobes do so intentionally and that is equate Shia with Iran. Telling others what to do in their grief is also not in the teachings of humanity. As for legislating grief, yes, the Wahabis have an enviable record in that regard.
Sibte Hassan Shah, you hit on my point. The vast majority of Shia Muslims (living in Iran, Syria, Lebanon etc) do not practice Zanjir Matam, in fact they have banned it. You have stated they ban other Shia rituals as well.
Are you really saying Iran, Syria, Lebanon etc are all anti-Shia or pro-Wahabi for doing so? Sorry, but that does not make any logical sense.
Khawar, what I am stating is the simple fact that it is the clerics in Iran and Lebanon that have placed curbs on Azadari. Some Shias may be ok with that. Others are not. It is an individual practice and there should be no compulsions. Also, you have not answered my question? Are you ok with the curbs on practices that are essentially cultural like Taziyeh enactments in Iran? Where does it stop and what right to clerics have to legislate grief?
I have a copy of the original (I saved it before it was taken down) and no where does Prof Ali call anyone a lunatic. He talks about “lunacy”, which is used to talk about a situation or behaviour, not people. As for calling Prof Ali a racist and a bigot, that is absurd. Shias are not a race and he was calling for dialogue, something bigots don’t do.
People have also objected to Prof Ali’s use of the phrase “high on testosterone (and God knows what else)”, interpreting this as drugs. For your information, testosterone is a hormone produced by the body, NOT a drug. It gives males their ‘maleness’ and its levels rise when doing any physical or aggressive activity (for example with sportsmen or soldiers in battle). Given that Shia males do not self-flagellate with feather dusters, and are in a state of heightened emotion, if these males did not have testosterone pumping through their bodies, they should be seriously worried! Then there are the words in parentheses – “and God knows what else”. There is a reason why people use parentheses – it is for a not so important matter. In this instance, at best it is insinuating rather than defaming.
So, what exactly is the outrage about: the language/tone of the article or that Prof Ali dared to raise the issue at all? If the outrage is about the language, then the section that appears to have caused offence consisted of about 45 words (over about 2 sentences) and consisted of the language I referred to above – 45 words in an article that consists of 680 words. I am reminded of the saying ‘sticks and stones may hurt my bones, but names will never harm me” only here it seems that while beating yourself to a pulp causes no distress, a mere perceived slight is enough to instigate outrage. I smell insecurity.
Still, while people are entitled to object to Prof. Ali’s opinions and the choice of language, it does not follow that Prof Ali (or anyone else) should not be allowed to raise or discuss the issue. Freedom of religion does not give you the right to restrict scrutiny or comment by others. Shias might regard certain things sacred, but that does not mean others have to – or that these things should be taboo and beyond scrutiny.
Again, not allowing criticism by saying you are offended strikes me as insecurity; and just appealing to personal freedoms risks reducing everything to a kind of relativism that demands that everything and anything be acceptable and permissible. Of course, what you do off your own free will, in your life and in your house is your business, but when you bring it out into the streets – as processions – and when you take over the life of a country, as happens in Muharram, I think others are entitled to ask why. You are infringing on public space and the public have a right to ask questions.
This debate about religion in the public sphere is long overdue in Pakistan and it is postponing it for fear of causing offence that has got the country into the mess it is in at the moment.
So as far as I can see, you offer no counter argument or justification other than the right to believe whatever one likes and tradition. However, if tradition were sufficient reason to continue doing something, we would still be living in caves, roaming around in loin cloths and hunting with a bow and arrow. If tradition is the only basis, then I think there might be some truth behind the Wahabbi criticism that the Muharram observances have no theological basis and are instead a cultural add-on. After all, neither the religion nor the Prophet (pbuh) encourage ostentatious or prolonged mourning, and the Prophet (pbuh) had died by the time the battle of Karbala took place so saying it is sunnah (as one blog has actually done) just doesn’t make sense.
Slmn0 Suleman Akhtar
@saleem_ali Well sir, this ‘irrelevant criticism’ has been employed to persecute Shias. You need to understand this. @AbdulNishapuri
15 Dec
AbdulNishapuri Abdul Nishapuri
@saleem_ali Race does not exist, so the question of change does not arise! You can close a case. Hope Shia massacres too come to a close!
15 Dec Favorite Reply Delete
AbdulNishapuri Abdul Nishapuri
@saleem_ali In Jews case, there was demonization of race. In Shias case, it is demonization of rituals. We know your position already!
15 Dec
AbdulNishapuri Abdul Nishapuri
@saleem_ali Your stereotyping of Shias while they are being massacred in Pak, Afg is equivalent to stereotyping of Jews during holocaust.
15 Dec
AbdulNishapuri Abdul Nishapuri
@saleem_ali The footsoldiers who cause physical harm to Shias need ideological ammunition, which is provided by folks such as yourself.
15 Dec
AbdulNishapuri Abdul Nishapuri
@saleem_ali Straw man aside, your views on Zuljanah are not much different from these people’s: youtube.com/watch?v=jlMdLa…
15 Dec
AbdulNishapuri Abdul Nishapuri
@saleem_ali I am criticizing your analyses, not personal faith or relations. I can only apologize if you think I bullied you.
15 Dec
AbdulNishapuri Abdul Nishapuri
@saleem_ali Your analyses are consistently anti-Shia and acontextual. Shias need advocacy not lopsided criticism at this crucial juncture.
15 Dec
AbdulNishapuri Abdul Nishapuri
There is no such thing as Shia-ism (a term commonly used by LeJ-SSP Zakir Naik / Israr Ahmed types). It is Shia Islam.
15 Dec
AbdulNishapuri Abdul Nishapuri
Saleem Ali’s follow up article in FP reconfirms his anti-Shia bias. This shows that urban educated class is only a refined face of LeJ.
——–
saleem_ali Saleem Ali
@AbdulNishapuri Again feel free to contact me if I can help with your noble cause against persecution of #Shia on human level
saleem_ali Saleem Ali
@AbdulNishapuri Existence of race is relatively manifest. Germans defined their persecution on unchangeable view of ethnicity: hence “race”
saleem_ali Saleem Ali
@AbdulNishapuri Basic biological fact: rituals can be changed and should: race cannot be changed: Case closed. Good luck with your work
saleem_ali Saleem Ali
@AbdulNishapuri During holocaust, rituals were not the issue, it was demonization of “race” — genetics. Let’s be fair and move on
saleem_ali Saleem Ali
@AbdulNishapuri Most historians agree that Treaty of Versailles was badly handled by Europeans –>> does NOT make them Nazis ideologues
saleem_ali Saleem Ali
@AbdulNishapuri Example: #Nazis used humiliation of #Germans by rest of Europe at Versailles Treaty (1919) as propaganda –>>>
saleem_ali Saleem Ali
@AbdulNishapuri It is sheer logical fallacy to say if two people have a similar view on a ritual therefore they support each other
srazikazmi Razi Kazmi
@saleem_ali it seems ur last spoiling for fight with them lft u in disappointment leading u thru severe shiaphobic attacks. @AbdulNishapuri
saleem_ali Saleem Ali
@AbdulNishapuri Using the prefix “anti” is a dichotomous statement which all reasonable people like you should abjure
saleem_ali Saleem Ali
@AbdulNishapuri You should not expect utter subservience to one view: That’s like #GWBush saying: “You are either with us or against us?”
saleem_ali Saleem Ali
@AbdulNishapuri Half of my family are Shia – I am insignificant in this – my concern is you will harm your worthy cause by such bullying
saleem_ali Saleem Ali
@AbdulNishapuri I have clearly stated that LeJ is terrorist group and must be fought in article. You are hurting your cause by being unfair
@Arif Mirza
1. If I can write a harmless 1000 word article, and abuse you, your family, and everything dear to you in less than 50 words. Justified?
2. Parenthesis are generally used to provide additional information, but usually used to ‘insinuate’ something sarcastic.
3. If Saleem Ali has a right to bark whatever he wants to, why does it pain you to see us criticizing him in return?
4. The rest is all crap and childish. Better luck next time.
Was just reading comment section and found gem of tweet of Hero . Matam aur lasho ki siyaast . That heroes doesn’t know what is Matam , neither he knows anything about Lash nor Siyaast.
His tweet about Nusrat Bhutto and her admirer are not worth of even commenting .
62% of respondents in Dr. Siddiqa’s data (urban elite universities) consider shias to be non-Muslims .
http://www.boell-pakistan.org/downloads/Red_Hot_Chilli_Peppers_Islam_-_Complete_Study_Report.pdf
Why Am I Not Surprised?
/”As for calling Prof Ali a racist and a bigot, that is absurd. Shias are not a race and he was calling for dialogue, something bigots don’t do.”/
@Arif Mirza: Mirza sahib, all i can say is that you need to consult some legit dictionary before arguing over the meaning and usage of words.
You can start by this:
http://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/race
and
http://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/bigot
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