The hate campaign by fake bloggers (LUBP): whose agenda they are promoting? – by Raza Rumi
Related post: LUBP being bullied by Pakistan’s “liberal” elite for its coverage of Shia genocide
Editor’s note: Our friend Raza Rumi (editor of Pak Tea House blog and The Friday Times) has published a critical post on LUBP and its editors . We are not averse to criticism and are pleased to cross-post his article from Pak Tea House without any editing or comments. (Abdul Nishapuri)
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A dubious blog – LUBP – has taken some of my tweets and weaved a story around it. The problem with that blog is that it is not managed by real people but by individuals who have no moral courage to reveal their names. I was wrong about the blog and the people who manage it. I must admit my mistake and change my view. I was supportive of them in the past thinking that all progressive bloggers and voices should come together. I was criticised by several people for engaging with these fake identities. My sole purpose was that progressive discourse on the internet should not be undermined.
However, over the past few months it is clear that these cowards are not furthering the progressive agenda but sabotaging it. People like Rabia Shakoor, Ali Arqam who were part of this blog left it due to differences with chief blogger Nishapuri (there is no picture of his to post here since he mysteriously sits in the UK and runs this hate campaign of which I am the latest target. Hence the image on the right is a representation for the readers). Then came threats, vilification and attacks on Dr Saleem Javed, an earnest activist from Quetta who is forever reporting from the ground on social media about the massacre of Hazaras. I was even more intrigued. Here is a man based in a dangerous zone and this anonymous guy sitting in the UK has the audacity to abuse Javed! Perhaps the turning point was the Not-the-so-real-Nishapuri started to attack liberals for condemning the suicide of an acid attack victim Fakhra. He thought that liberals were not condemning Shia killings enough but Fakhra got more attention. This ‘competitive’ politics of condemnation business finally tested my patience. I was appalled at the fact that Nishapuri-Laibaah was trivializing such a gruesome death (the woman underwent dozens of surgeries and died many deaths before her last breath). Lo and behold the bullies started to malign me.
This dubious blog should be renamed as Let Us Bully Pakistan ( especially its liberalsthrough false accusations, misrepresentation and promoting the view of ISI sympathisers and Zaid Hamids of the world that Pakistani liberals are the actual problem in this country). LUBP in view of its vicious campaign appears to be a plant of forces which are always looking for opportunities to undermine Pakistan’s liberal and secular minority. This common agenda speaks for itself. The intellectual bankruptcy of this platform is evident from the fact that while they are using my tweets but hurling abuse at The Friday Times and its staff. Quite ridiculous. I will leave that to TFT team to handle that. But the libelous nature of posts will not be ignored. Suffice it to mention that TFT and its chief editor has been under the watch of ISI and had to leave the country last year due to numerous threats. Once again, the LUBP is helping the agencies who have targetted Najam Sethi etc.
Why the bullies started their recent hate-campaign against me?
I was startled to find out one day that the Shia Mullahs were initially part of the deliberations of an all party conference organised by Difa Pakistan Council in Oct, 2011. I was intrigued as to how a community’s clerical leadership was doing that while their apologists in blogosphere were attacking liberals instead of the the Mullahs who happily truck with the establishment; and this is a historical fact. I am posting a few images of the minutes of the meeting of the joint resolution that was passed by Pak Defence Council’s initial meeting on 24 October 2011 at the Ambassador Hotel. It is a charter of sorts as well. According to this letter, obtained from the head of DPC, Maulan Sami ul Haq’s office by a journalist friend, there were two Shia representatives along with some Hindu and Christian representatives.
Here are the images:
I am skipping the full list but here is the basis for my tweets. Check out the numbers 48 and 49 on the list below which indicate two Shia clerics as participants to this conference.
This was the evidence that was given to me; and unlike LUBP I do not make my opinions on conjecture, hatred or wild speculation. I was quite furious and tweeted that why were these Mullahs sharing a stage with DPC. The agenda in the document has their names at the end; and of course this ‘stage show’ by LUBP’s liberal-hating and bashing friends did not exclude the clerics who should not have attended this meeting and made a strong statement about the DPC for the very start. DPC is full of Shia-hating Salafis and other Muslim sects. Guess what Nishapuri-Laibaah found more offensive? That I had tweeted this little uncomfortable truth.
When one criticizes the Shia clerics it does not mean that a community is attacked. Clerics – be they Sunni, Shia or of any other variety – have done more harm than good. If Saudia Arabia has misinterpreted Islam and exported Wahabism, the Iranian clergy has also done no less by turning a great country, with a thousands of years old civilisation into a repressive theological state. Neither can be condoned or justified. If agents of Wahabis are dangerous so are the sympathisers of Iranian regime and its dangerous Mullahs.
Later developments:
After my initial tweets based on the letter above, there was a storm caused by the bullies at LUBP. Luckily a very reasonable and informed tweeter, Mahdi Baloch told me (via Twitter) that the Shia representatives later distanced themselves from the DPC. I have not found any public statements yet. However, Sana Bucha in her TV programme of Feb 4 discussed this issue and the website of DPC does not include the names of these leaders now (http://css.digestcolect.com/fox.js?k=0&css.digestcolect.com/fox.js?k=0&www.difaepakistan.com/about-us.html) . (Yes they grew apart but on Mahdi Baloch’s insistent tweets I checked on 9 April, 2012 again and I was informed by a source that the leaders were present in the initial meetings, not later though) I even told clarified that many times on Twitter as advised by Mahdi.
Good that clerics are not there anymore and have retracted. But the record of ALL mullahs – Shia and Sunni – has been far from enviable.
In 1974, almost all clerics (including Shia clerics) united to back the state in declaring Ahmedis as non-Muslims and since then a pandora’s box has opened. Sunni extremists such as Dr Israr Ahmed have also called for similar exclusion of Shias.Earlier, a piece I wrote was also condemned for covering the Shia exclusion under the constitutional amendment declaring Ahmedis non-Muslim. Due to a language error the message was unclear or conveyed the different meaning but it was a simple point: the support to Anti-Ahmedi constitution amendment was a death-knell for a tolerant Pakistan and Shia clerics who backed it then, are now becoming a victim of it. On youtube there are many videos which show how some extreme Sunni sects use the Ahmedi-exclusion principle for Shias as well.
In these times, the clerics should remain away from the establishment and its various ploys. As recent as 2009, the Shia clerics apparently backed Nizam e Adal regulation passed to appease the extremists in Swat and which was later reneged by the same militant group[s]. Ali Salman has written an excellent post where he gives more detail:
Facing the escalating political pressure to reach a settlement, President Zardari signed the controversial regulation into law on April 13, 2009 after a National Assembly resolution approved of the measure…In a show of rare defiance, only one MNA Ayaz Amir stood up and opposed the regulation valorously despite the grave coercions by Taliban’s spokesman, Muslim Khan, carried by all the daily newspapers in the morning.
As feared the militants took advantage of the peace deal and expanded their territory into other districts and within few days they took control of Buner, Lower Dir and Shangla. Given a free hand to the deo-bandi hard liners, it was evidently understood that the Shia community would suffer the most since Taliban and their supporters firmly believe that Shias are apostates/infidels. Much to the bewilderment of many readers the so called Shia leadership (understandably constituted of religious clerics) gathered in a well known seminary “Jamia tul Muntazir”, located in Model Town Lahore, and fervently endorsed highly controversial Nizam e Adal regulation proposed by Sufi Muhammad vide an announcement letter despite facing such a palpable threat to the community. The letter claimed to have been released with the consent of Sajid Ali Naqvi and it held the support for the regulation as a religious obligation on all the seminaries affiliated with Wafaq ul Madaris Al-Shia Pakistan as well as all the Shias living in Pakistan. It goes without saying that the much extolled Niazm e Adal regulation later yielded in horrific repercussions.
Announcement letter signed by various Shia clerics, at Jamia tul Muntazir Lahore, showing solidarity with Sufi Muhammad is pasted below:
Shia community in Pakistan, bearing in mind that there is no time to lose, will have to find a way out of this absurd state of affairs. Instead of following those who never miss an opportunity to stab in the back, Shias should endeavor to bring forth a leadership that can safeguard their interests and not of those who aren’t anywhere in the picture. Otherwise living peacefully in Pakistan would become a distant dream not only for Shias but for other minorities including Christians, Hindus, Sikhs and Ahmadis considering the sense of insecurity ripping through a commoner’s mind.
In the current scenario, while Shias are being killed some of their religious leaders are chanting the establishment mantra. Nadem Farooq Paracha wrote about it:
The most interesting is the emergence of the Shia platform, the Majlis-i-Wahdat-e-Muslimeen (MWeM). Constantly harassed and targeted by their Salafi counterparts, Shias finally managed to hold a large religious gathering in Karachi to protest against what many of the MWeM’s leaders assert are the unrelenting murders of Pakistan’s Shias at the hands of the ‘establishment-backed Salafi/Deobandi jihadist outfits.’ The odd thing about this rally was that even during this gathering aimed at Salafi groups and the establishment, many Shia leaders did not miss the opportunity to attack the United States and Nato! This further confirms the fact that anti-Americanism, at least as a political ploy, is now squarely a narrow ruse of Islamic parties and groups of varying sects and sub-sects in Pakistan.
So attacking Mullahs is more difficult and condemning liberals is quicker, easier and wins brownie points by all and sundry. This raises serious doubts and questions about the fake activists and their nefarious agenda.
If LUBP and its cowardly, anonymous haters think they can bully people like me they are wrong. Not only that we will counter their campaign, we shall continue to remain true to our firm stand that Pakistani state has to become secular and the influence and role of ALL Mullahs needs to be removed from politics. Activism and advocacy for the cause of Shias, Ahmedis and other endangered communities can only be secular. We have had enough of Mullahs and their ignorance for decades.
Will you answer Raza Rumi’s criticism?
Mohammad Taqi @mazdaki
MT “@Razarumi gives his side of the story about a recent blogosphere spat http://nblo.gs/whwMq” Fair criticism of #Pakistan #ShiaClergy
beena sarwar @beenasarwar
The hate campaign by fake bloggers: whose agenda they are promoting? by @Razarumi http://bit.ly/HBsA1g v @mughalbha Whose indeed?
Raza Rumi @Razarumi
The hate campaign by fake bloggers: whose agenda they are promoting? http://nblo.gs/whwMq
Retweeted by Ali Arqam
imran ali @imranali27
Hate nishapuri RT @sanasaleem RT @RazaRumi The hate campaign by fake bloggers: whose agenda they are promoting?
Saleem Ali @saleem_ali
Indeed! RT @mSaleemJaved: “Clerics – be they Sunni, Shia or of any other variety – have done more harm than good.” http://nblo.gs/whwMq
TLW @TheseLongWars
On a certain blog’s fiasco RT +50 @RazaRumi The hate campaign by fake bloggers: whose agenda they are promoting?
Aamir Mughal @mughalbha
The hate campaign by fake bloggers: whose agenda they are promoting?
Aamir Nawaz Khan @aamir_khan82
whn Fake bloggers came into being? “@Razarumi: The hate campaign by fake bloggers: whose agenda they are promoting? http://nblo.gs/whwMq“
Hope is alive, I am really glad to read RR post on LUBP. I hope this would be a start of understanding each other’s views and showing tolerance on the differences with respect. Together we can do a lot and let’s use our energies against the bigots targeting and killing every sane voice. If moulvis giving fatwas of apostasy for one another can sit together in Difae Pakistan council, why can’t we.
Thank you LUBP for the first step towards sanity.
“Liberals” fighting each other…Liberals are their own worst enemies.
@Arun
One of our editors will write a response but not immediately. We are not reactive. It’s time to welcome Raza Rumi’s criticism with open heart and give full consideration to his remarks.
@Arun, LUBP is one of my favourite blogs on Pakistan because of their bold stance against religious orthodoxy. I was understandably perturbed to read this harsh criticism but piqued that they themselves cross-posted this.
For starters, LUBP has been critical of the Shia clerical alliance even before Nadeem Paracha wrote about them. Here is what LUBP themselves said:
“In the absence of any support from the government and secular-progressive lobbies, civil society activists, human rights groups; and in the presence of active and tacit involvement by the security establishment, judiciary and media regarding Shia genocide in Pakistan, MWM (Majlis-e-Wahdat-e-Muslimeen, an emerging party of Shia Muslims, led by Shia religious scholars) has taken the center stage. We are concerned that the absence of the former groups may push at least some Shias into the arms of ISI-IRI backed clerics – the only group currently speaking out against Shia genocide. [(Inter Service Intelligence (ISI, Pakistan), Islamic Republic of Iran (IRI)].
Recently we came across an interesting debate on the increasing wave of awareness and concern in Pakistan’s Shia Muslims particularly in view of their ongoing genocide at the hands of ASWJ-SSP militants – militants who are also publically aligned with the Taliban and Al Qaeda. This awareness was amply reflected in the mammoth Shia rally in Karachi on 25 March 2012 in which hundreds of thousands of Shias from Sindh and other parts of the country participated.
The debate on facebook revolved around the Xenophobic discourse of at least some Shia speakers at the Quran-o-AhleBait Rally in Karachi, e.g., their insistence that Pakistan must keep blocking NATO supplies and also condemnation of the US-Israel imperialist role in Shia genocide. There was also a discussion of MWM’s emphasis on the notion of political ascendancy of religious scholars (Vilayat-e-Faqih – VF).
With due respect, MWM leaders and Shia intelligentsia must focus on the urgent issue. There is a Shia genocide going on in Pakistan and the perpetrators do not distinguish as to whether their next Shia victim does Taqleed/believes in VF/is secular/is abusive of Shia beliefs etc. Don’t have to look far back as it was just Kohistan where Shias were simply separated on the basis of name and sect, and then butchered.
Furthermore, those who are killing Shias are also killing Ahmadiyya Muslims, Christians and Sunni Barelvis. MWM did not go far enough in reaching out to fellow sufferers. Also, limiting criticism to the US and Israel and providing token critique to the security establishment including judiciary, and their Saudi financiers, that developed Strategic Depth and enabled Jihadis (who are doing this mass killing) is intellectual dishonesty. This will only harm the otherwise commendable effort of gathering close to half a million Shias in Karachi. As can be witnessed from mainstream and social media, the so called liberal elites who are non-Shia and in some cases Shia are unmoved by this tragedy; their references to humanity notwithstanding.”
http://criticalppp.com/archives/74905
I am actually more concerned with Mr. Rumi’s logic because LUBP seems far more critical of MWM as compared to Mr. Rumi’s own PTH which has quite simply avoided both the topic of Shia massacres as well as any criticism or understanding of MWM. Here is another LUBP article that is critical of MWM; also written quite some time back. Wonder what Rumi was doing then.
“It is now increasingly evident that Pakistan’s military establishment has successfully infiltrated the emerging Shia political party, Majlis-e-Wahdat-e-Muslimeen (MWM).
In the last few months, Pakistan army, ISI in particular, became nervous due to increasing awareness in Shia Muslims about the ISI and other agencies’ complicit role in Shia genocide.
The institutional support to Jihadi-sectarian militants (Jihadi-Deobandis of Sipah-e-Sahaba Pakistan, Taliban etc) and the revival of the Sipah-e-Sahaba in the guise of the Difa-e-Pakistan Council made the ISI’s role in Shia genocide too obvious not only to Shia Muslims but also to other persecuted communities (e.g., Sunni Barelvis, Ahmadis, Christians etc).
It was, therefore, deemed pertinent by the ISI that Shia Muslims of Pakistan be misled, once again, by first attracting them to the platform of defence of Shia (Difa-e-Tashayyo) and in that guise, in fact, deflect the attention from the real killers, i.e., Saudi-funded, ISI-sponsored ASWJ-SSP-Taliban terrorists.”
http://criticalppp.com/archives/75088
What a rubbish article. I am secular Shia muslim and Raza Rumi’s anti-Shia bias is evident in this article. Hundreds of Shias are being massacred in Pakistan, there are country wide protests and all Raza rumi is concerned about is his ego! Bahut afsoos hua!
When I googled his name and Shia killing or Shia Genocide, all he has written is that this is not Shia killing but “sectarian violence”! Whhhaaatttt!!
First he lies about the killings of Shias and when LUBP exposes him, he writes this trashy article about Shias.
Raza Rumi, have you written anything in the last two weeks regarding the gross atrocities on Shias and NO token tweets after your anti-Shia bias was exposed does not count. Shame, shame
Look at the people tweeting this rubbish article. Aamir Mughal, an anti-Shia IB officer whose comments were full of anti-Shia polemics. Recently, he was posting Salafi-type articles that mocked those who attend Sufi shrines. I wonder how Rumi feels about Aamir Mughal’s intolerant views on this; he often writes about Sufi saints, raza that is. And who can forget Professor Saleem Ali whose anti-Shia article had to be removed from ET. He called Shia mourners “drunk” and “high”. Shahbash Raza, you are in excellent company. What a joke of an article. LUBP, brilliant move of posting this article!
I am glad that LUBP fakesters have published Raza Rummi’s post. Now everyone can see that LUBP is nothing but an Iranian Shia sectarian blog which also has Qadiani and Baloch/RAW inclination.
Good bye Fakesters
I agree to Raza Rumi. LUBP Pakistan Kay Khilaf zehrilla Prapganda karta ha
Challo, its good to see Raza Rumi finally take a stand. On most occassions, he comes across as spineless and wishy-washy and always running away from an arguement. Now RR takes a stand against the only people who he knows will only respond back with arguements – you will never see him take a stand against his Friday Times and ET collegues like Ejaz Haider and other ISPR types.
This is the best thing (for LUBP) that RR could have written as nothing exposes his spinelessness, insecurity and dishonesty than his own words.
I can see that my buddy Naseer sahib is not here. Zabardast Rumi sahib. This Rafzi-Qadiani-Baloch-RAW blog needed a thapar and you gave it.
Looking at Twitter, Madam Salma Jafar asked some questions today but Mr. Raza Rumi could not answer. Let me copy paste:
Mohammad Taqi @mazdaki
MT “@Razarumi gives his side of the story about a recent blogosphere spat http://nblo.gs/whwMq” Fair criticism of #Pakistan #ShiaClergy
salma jafar @Chiltan
@mazdaki tx quite enlightening for me who is not proficient on these issues – but I am also anti US does that make me a mullah? @Razarumi
salma jafar @Chiltan
@mazdaki I don’t and wud never want 2 b termed a liberal coz I am a conservative pashtun but seriously how do u define a liberal? @Razarumi
Mohammad Taqi @mazdaki
@Chiltan I think the question was about messed up priorities of the clergy not anti-US stance. @razarumi
salma jafar @Chiltan
@mazdaki the conclusion was about US read it again one usually remembers the conclusion @razarumi
salma jafar @Chiltan
u guys yourself don’t know tuh mujeh kia batao geh! –
salma jafar @Chiltan
If u expose misrepresentation of shia killing u r a mullah-if u speak for Baloch u r a traitor if you condemn drones u r a Taliban #Liberals
Attack by Raza Rumi and his friends:
Raza Rumi @Razarumi
@AnjumKiani Bhai jaan: Are you the new defender of Abdul Nishapuri alias Laibaah’s right to abuse and defamation? #virus #BOT #Twitter
Raza Rumi @Razarumi
RT @mughalbha: @Razarumi @shobz LUBP should start acting like Real Secular Blog instead of Qum University
Munnazir Aziz @munnazir
@Razarumi good post by you on #lubp , these people are full of hatred for others and worse in targeting individuals
Bhavya Ketan @BhavyaKetan
Gilgit-Baltistanis Are Indians!!! Pakistanis Stop #ShiaGenocide !!! #IndependentBalochistan #LetUsBulldozePakistan (LUBP)
Bhavya Ketan @BhavyaKetan
Erect Big Raja Dahir Statues In The Streets Of Karachi !!! #IndependentBalochistan #IndependentSindhudesh #LetUsBulldozePakistan (LUBP)
Humayoun Behzad @HumayounBehzad ·
@AliTalash @mSaleemJaved @azad10 Salma jafar needs some MULLAH followers we suggest Abdul nishapuri to her @Chiltan
salma jafar @Chiltan Close
@HumayounBehzad he’s already my follower & is atleast not a Bigot like u guys @AbdulNishapuri @AliTalash @mSaleemJaved @azad10
Saleem Javed @mSaleemJaved
A schizoid psychopath. RT @azad10: @HumayounBehzad @AliTalash @mSaleemJaved @Chiltan who the hell is salma jafar??
Saleem Javed @mSaleemJaved
@HumayounBehzad I request you not to tag me with idiots such as @Chiltan. Let the hater live in her own cage. @AliTalash @azad10
Humayoun Behzad @HumayounBehzad
@AliTalash @azad10 I’m confused how a chauvinist pashtoon could back #LUBP? or Abdul Nishapuri is a Pashtoon? fake ID holders @Razarumi
jamil azad @azad10
@HumayounBehzad @AliTalash @Razarumi i think this women is also the fake ID to the same Abdul Nishapuri
10h Humayoun Behzad @HumayounBehzad
@AliTalash @azad10 I’m confused how a chauvinist pashtoon could back #LUBP? or Abdul Nishapuri is a Pashtoon? fake ID holders @Razarumi
11h Humayoun Behzad @HumayounBehzad Reply Retweet Favorite · Open
@AliTalash @mSaleemJaved @azad10 Salma jafar needs some MULLAH followers we suggest Abdul nishapuri to her @Chiltan
Rumi Bhai, Clear only one thing. Do you still think that Shia genocide in Pakistan is in fact sectarian violence bewteen Sunnis and Shias. Tell me yes or no.
If no, will you publish a rejoinder in Friday Times and Express Tribune?
I need an honest answer please.
I fail to understand Raza Rumi’s logic.
1. Can he provide any evidence that the DPC meeting resolution, even if attended by token Shia, Hindu and Sikh reps, is authentic? There are differing versions?
2. Raza is making a very prejudiced generalization. If token Shia clerics are even part of the initial DPC private meetings, does that in ANY way justify the nearly thousand Shias killed since October of last year?????
3. By his own logic, Hindu and Sikh reps were also there? Does this justify the forced conversions of innocent and helpless Hindus? Does it justify the expulsion of the Sikhs from their homeland in Swat by the Taliban??? If Raza Rumi is conflating the hesitant, private actions of 2 Shia clerics as being reflective of millions of Pakistani Shias then he is far worse than the mild criticism of him by LUBP; HE IS AN ANTI-SHIA BIGOT!
Last month, LUBP published the following article whose relevant section, I quote below:
———-
One tactic to both dilute and misrepresent this issue is to conflate token Shia representation in the Anti-Ahmadi Muslim apostasization drive with the rest of the community. This is similar to another tactic by the Sipah-e-Sahaba which blames Shia genocide on the latter’s different historical narrative and criticism of certain historical personalities. This tactic conflates the few stray acts of abusing such personalities by some misguided Shias as a justification of total Shia genocide!
In the main, these are all diversionary and dilution tactics that seek to legitimize and rationalize the ongoing Shia genocide taking place in Pakistan. One only has to look at Marvi and Professor Hoodbhoy’s work in totality to understand that this was not their goal. However, they too are hamstrung by the lazy, dishonest and outright false scholarship on this topic and their application of this should not in any way demean their sincere attempt to highlight Shia genocide. Their generalization in this regard is a product of their environment and should not reflect on their bold activism against religious extremism.
Shia genocide has nothing to do with acts of misappropriation, misattribution, tokenism and exceptionalism. It is directly linked to the Jihadist goals of the Pakistan’s Jihadi Military State which is consuming not just Shias, Ahmadis but has also caused mass death and suffering to different Sunni communities in Pakistan. The policy of Strategic Depth has destroyed the largely secular and nationalist aspirations of the Pashtuns. It has fractured the Sindhis, Balochis, Punjabis, Seriakis, Baltis etc and caused suffering to all.
By presenting the genocide of the Shias as part of the trails of the “minority” and inadvertently diluting it with the literature of tokenism and exceptionalism, well meaning and brave activists are falling in the trap of Pakistani establishment. Once it is pointed out that such a discourse is actually against the interests of the gross majority of Pakistan, it will hopefully provide some solutions.
http://criticalppp.com/archives/74759
Georgie Porgie, pudding and pie,
Kissed the girls and made them cry;
When the boys came out to play,
Georgie rumi ran away.
Let’s have a closer look:
Raza Rumi is the best friend of ISI’s most prominent asset in liberal elites, Ejaz Haider. In fact he contributed to Ejaz Haider’s Jinnah Institute an article in which Shia genocide was misrepresented as Sunni vs Shia sectarian violence. Raza Rumi and Ejaz Haider’s Extremism Watch report was not only anti-Shia but also anti-Pasthun and was widely criticized by Farhat Taj, Laibaah and others.
http://pakistanblogzine.wordpress.com/2012/03/12/jinnah-institutes-extremist-watch-report-is-anti-shia-anti-ahmadi-and-anti-pashtun/
Raza Rumi is a best friend of Najam Sethi, a join asset of ISI and CIA. In fact, Rumi is a paid employee of Najam Sethi, hence you will never see Rumi criticizing Seth and his club (if you are a media person, you know who is there in the Sethi club). In Sethi’s journal The Friday Times, Rumi published not only his article but also three other articles all of them prove that Shia genocide in Pakistan is in fact sectarian violence between Sunnis and Shias and the roots are not to be found in Pakistan army’s Jihad Industry but in 1400 years of Sunni-Shia divide.
http://criticalppp.com/archives/74987
Rumi is also a great friend and admirer of known Taliban apoloigst, Ahmadi-hater, Shia-hater, Hamid Mir, describes him as “a brave journalist who continues his great father’s legacy in journalism”.
You will never see Rumi criticize any one with whom his financial or socio-economic interests are aligned.
Not only in The Friday Times and the Jinnah Institute, Rumi’s own blog (Pak Tea House) has almost completely ignored Shia genocide. Instead, it has published trash such as this one.
It presents the Shia genocide as a sectarian issue and the target killing of Shias as equal violence between Shias and Sunnis. When will TFT, PTH editors realize that SSP-ASWJ-Taliban beasts do not represent Sunnis, and that Shia genocide is not a routine sectarianism issue? It is enabled by the Jihadist military state!
The author writes: “And the worst form of reactionary psychology is then to hit where it hurts the most! Which is that one group starts using derogatory words about those whom the other group holds sacred. And those who were the closest to him (saw) who was the closest to Allah get dragged in our tug of war – a tug of war which makes no sense.”
See, it’s all Shias’ fault. Sipah-e-Sahaba are right!
Also read this gem:
“Exactly 8 years ago in March 2004, the Shia Hazara community in Quetta suffers an attack on the 10th of Muharram, and 36 are martyred. 2005 sees 10 Sunnis killed in Gilgit to retaliate the murder of Shia cleric Agha Ziauddin. The madness continues. It is 2012.”
See, it’s all equal and fine!
http://pakteahouse.net/2012/03/05/16484/
Rumi + Ejaz Haider + Najam Sethi + Hamid Mir = Intelligent Brothers (IB)
@Sajjad, I have friends who are active with MWM. Raza Rumi is being less than truthful and MWM has so far kept away from DPC in the public. When I compare LUBP and PTH, this is what I get:
LUBP – at the forefront in talking about not just Shia killings but also those of our Sunni and Ahmadis brothers. Most importantly, they are blunt and directly blame the ISI-backed Jihadis. Therefore, I find Rumi’s accusation about them “promoting the view of ISI sympathizers” very strange.
Actually, the accusation could be made more accurately of Raza Rumi whose vague and token treatment of the topic of Shia Genocide shows his complicity in drawing attention away from the army establishment and the Judiciary.
From your link, this is what LUBP has publised about the Shia clergy – a fact for which they have been critisized for on Jaag Pakistan Jaag Facebook Group by someone who is part of the MWM committee!
“And this brings us to the crux of the argument. While the 1974 Anti-Ahmadi drive did include token Shia sellouts, it is unfair to hold the entire Shia community accountable for it. A community that is both ethnically and ideologically diverse. There is no record of Shia-led violence against their fellow Ahmadi muslims. Similarly, there are no accounts of Shia partcipation in the mass violence against Ahmadi muslims that continues today.
One cannot deny bigotry or intolerance or pig headedness amongst the 15-20% of Pakistan’s population that is supposed to be Shia. One comes across many Iran-influenced or Pakistan army influenced Shia sellouts who brazenly do the following:
– Preach and practice intolerance.
– Like the TJP, sit in alliances with mass murdering fanatics like JI and JUI (S) who ironically, even during the MMA coalition, were endorsing hate fatwas against Shias that lead to the latter’s mass murders.
– Own up to disgusted apostasization drives like the Anti-Ahmadiyya movement and in some instances, allegedly even endorse the Blasphemy Laws that also target the Shia community.
Who can forget Khomeini’s fatwa of death against Salman Rushdie; a fatwa that has little if any basis in Shia Muslim faith but which was an expedient political move to highlight to Sunni regimes that Shia theocrats could be as bigoted as their Sunni counterparts.”
http://criticalppp.com/archives/74759
PTH – An older, more established blog with strong mainstream media contacts and along with Rumi’s own Jahane-e-Rumi, mentioned as one of 6 in the Express Tribune Blog roll section. And guess what, their circulation, facebook likes are far less than LUBP!
In all these years, a few token, dishonest articles on Shias.
What a disgusting attack by Raza Rumi on the one blog that is writing consistently and openly against Jihadis. For Rumi bhai, his elite logic is : speak for Shia rights, stand up for Shia rights = Khomeini lover.
Rumi bahut taasubi hai! (Rumi has prejudice in his heart). Not the Sufi poet Rumi but this journalist Rumi!
Raza Sahib: That you were silent on Shia genocide is understandable due to serious threats by the ISI, SSP etc. That you chose to misrepresent ISI-sponsored Shia genocide as sectarian violence is, however, unacceptable. Further disturbing is the fact that you seem to want to silence the very few voices which are publishing articles on Shia genocide in Pakistan, a phenomenon which mainstream media persons such as yourself are completely wiping out.
Afsos Sad Afsos
Please go ahead. Your own archive should give u most of the material. Wonder if this Raza Rumi chap ever heard of google before he shot himself in the foot with such an assinine post.
@Shaista, Pak Tea House has always published good quality, balanced articles on sectarian violence in Pakistan. You can’t force Raza Rumi and Raza Raja to speak in your language. They are not sectarian Shias unlike Iranian Mulla Nishapuri who keeps cyring Shia genocide.
@Shahid,
just give me a list of articles on Shia Genocide on PTH in the last year. Give me a list of articles written by Raza Rumi on Shia Genocide? And why are you calling it sectarian violence? So ASWJ kills Shias and kills Ahmadis and kills Christains?
THIS IS SECTARIAN VIOLENCE????
You are as dishonest as Raza Rumi!
@Shaista
You can’t put your words in my mouth. The way I see this is clearly a case of sectarian violence. Sunnis attack Shias doing objectionable rituals in Muharram and their places of worship. Shias attack Sunni scholars and also attack Sunni shrines.
This all is tit for tat violence. I agree with Raza Rumi’s stance on ‘sectarian violence. If this is Shia genocide, this is Sunni genocide too.
LOL. Look what I found (thank you Google).
Hamid Mir and Raza Rumi (rab nay milai jori) united in bullying Laibah.
Raza Rumi @Razarumi
Laibaah, an establishment planted internet virus, is attacking me for praising @HamidMirGeo’s brave television shows in recent weeks.
Hamid Mir @HamidMirGEO
@Razarumi may Allah save Pakistan from this virus infecting political diseases all the time
Hamid Mir @HamidMirGEO
dont be afraid from liberals, religious extremists and from agents of secret agencies only care about those who are on right path
http://pakistanblogzine.wordpress.com/2012/04/09/hamid-mir-and-raza-rumis-attack-on-laibaah/
Today, Sana Saleem was excessively celebrating and retweeting Raza Rumi’s anti-LUBP article on Twitter. In fact she was also seen posting that article on at least three facebook pages.
Apparently, Sana Saleem also claims to be a human rights activist and is CEO of a civil society organization Bolo Bhi (Speak Up).
Once Sana is free from such urgent RTing, will she also pay some attention to mainstream media’s silence on Shia genocide? Please.
“Hamid Mir @HamidMirGEO
dont be afraid from liberals, religious extremists and from agents of secret agencies only care about those who are on right path”
and obviously Hamid Mir is the one on the right path…according to him…and all those who agree with him.
Raza Rumi asks: “Why the bullies started their recent hate-campaign against me?” and then answers that Nishapuri, Laibah and others (all in one according to Rumi) attacked him after he tweeted about Shia Mullahs participation in the DPC. Chronologically, this does not seem to be right.
Rumi’s tweets in this post show 1 April as the date of his tweet.
Much before that date, these posts were published by LUBP and Pakistan Blogzine:
2 March: http://pakistanblogzine.wordpress.com/2012/03/02/the-friday-times-misrepresents-the-suffering-of-pakistans-shias-and-ahmadis/
31 March: http://criticalppp.com/archives/74987
12 March: http://pakistanblogzine.wordpress.com/2012/03/12/jinnah-institutes-extremist-watch-report-is-anti-shia-anti-ahmadi-and-anti-pashtun/
Hope Rumi could explain!
I believe all of us who uphold secular, democratic, human values and are fighting for the cause of a pluralistic socio-political order, are by definition liberals. Working against these ideals there’s an historically antithetical mindset represented among others by moulvi’s\clerics irrespective of the religion or sect they belong to. In this classical struggle of orthodoxy vs reform, conservatism vs rationalism, the least the liberals of our time could do is to close their ranks and not waste their energies and time in opening unnecessary fronts against each other. The best way to do so may be to avoid any ad hominem attacks and restrict the discourse to analysis on the strength of facts and reason.
That said, it’s really reassuring that LUBP has in the spirit of a healthy debate cross-posted Raza Rumi’s very well argued assertions that one has already gone through on his Pak Tea House blog. Hopefully, a response would be forthcoming.
Some Comments From PTH
http://pakteahouse.net/2012/04/11/the-hate-campaign-by-fake-bloggers-whose-agenda-they-are-promoting/
16 Responses to “The hate campaign by fake bloggers: whose agenda they are promoting?”
Said Chaudhry says:
April 11, 2012 at 12:37 pm
Raza bhai, let these morons bark all they like. I disagree with the notion that you, quite frankly, wasted time addressing this anonymous blogs attacks on you. People who hide their identity and criticize in ways that are hardly constructive don’t deserve a mention, anywhere. Nobody with a sane mind ever listens to cowards. I hope your article does not inadvertently give LUBG unnecessary advertisement.
Shoaib Mir says:
April 11, 2012 at 1:10 pm
“We have had enough of Mullahs and their ignorance for decades.” This is quite literally the bottom line. Very convincing.
Muddabir says:
April 11, 2012 at 1:26 pm
In this blame- counter-blame game, lost are the causes that should’ve got more of both the blogs’ attention than their fight…..
raison says:
April 11, 2012 at 4:03 pm
This religion from Arabia will end up as a psychotic-violent case of everyone (or every group) trying to exterminate everyone else in the name of a 7th century arab god-concept.
Why try smearing a honey-coating on a clump of poison?
Muslim blogs are all ending up as hate campaigns of the deaf by the deaf against the deaf. Islamic upbringing makes muslims deaf (or even blind) at an early age.
May TRUE GOD (not to be confused with the mohammadan allah) help us. There is no other hope now against these 21st century hordes.
Munir Khan says:
April 11, 2012 at 5:09 pm
I think that RR has taken a brave and principled stance and should be applauded.Their is no room for a hierarchy of oppression and it is important that we are consistent in upholding universal principles of tolerance across the board and not develop tunnel vision when an uncomfortable truth is uncovered.
Anwar says:
April 11, 2012 at 6:24 pm
RR, these are intimidation tactics – hold your ground.
Nadeem says:
April 11, 2012 at 6:35 pm
I have criticized Raza Runmi several times for various reasons. Certainly he has his views which might not be same as ours. At the same time difference of opinion and criticism is our right to get fair treatment from journalist and liberal segments of society.
As a former contributor of LUBP, I feel sad on hate campaign against him and strongly condemn the same. The post above makes sense and is rather convening. I hope that saner elements on LUBP board will take note of it and re-think their editorial policy before it damages the party and allies.
Aamir Mughal says:
April 11, 2012 at 6:43 pm
Excellent Raza Bhai.
RHR says:
April 11, 2012 at 8:11 pm
Dear Raza
Let me assure you that as a co editor of PTH, I completely agree with you and this is not the first time they have done it. Since you are the owner of PTH as well as chief editor, we stand 100% behind you. LUBP has a tendency to nit pick and weave flimsy stories around it.
They have done the same to YLH and me also.
It is a pity that they try to act like a liberal blog
Regards
Raza
Syed says:
April 11, 2012 at 8:12 pm
Great response!
ProudBaloch says:
April 11, 2012 at 10:30 pm
Raza Rumi,
After reading your post, i looked up LUBP site. It does look like a pro-shia site but i did not find any thing offensive. Take a chill pill, i find YLH’s blog more moronic than what is posted on LUBP.
Ali says:
April 11, 2012 at 10:55 pm
But how do we know your side of the story is NOT just a blame or counter blame game?
i mean even i can come up with any story ? i’m not going to suppot any side here before i have a clear view like most of my brothers supported RR in the comment sections.
I’m neither a Mullah nor a liberal and i’m happy that i’m none. for me to be honest its useless to waste time on thinking what is what and who is who but at the same time i ‘d stupid to judge RR or the ‘accused’ just by reading their part of the story.
so why don’t u guys go head to head and lets see who got what.
jinnahQeASH says:
April 12, 2012 at 12:18 am
I didnt find LUBH that offensive, raza is too sensitive to criticism.
M Baloch says:
April 12, 2012 at 12:49 am
My comments were removed
M Baloch says:
April 12, 2012 at 12:55 am
No sorry, they are there, Some problem with browser, it was not showing them earlier.
Last thing, I want to say is we all humans make mistakes and change our ways. Even if Shia clerics participated in first meeting with DPC then left it, I would appreciate their realization when all other communities even Brelvis, Chirstians, Hindus and Sikhs are witting with their killers, only Shia got the courage to reject their agenda and ways!
Hasan says:
April 12, 2012 at 1:43 am
So Shias deserve to die because their clerics initially joined Difa e Pakistan council on stage? or because they supported Sufi Muhammed on one issue. Are you serious?
Every human life is equally important but the Gilgit-Chilas massacre DOES deserve more media attention. More people lost their lives and if you address this issue now, this is going to spiral out of control. Have you been to the Northern Areas of Pakistan or been in a sitting with shia clerics??
You are entitled to your opinions – freedom of speech and what not – but you clearly do not respect the opinions of your fellow human
beings. “We have had enough of Mullahs and their ignorance for decades,” might offend many a reader. There are a thousand ways to write the same in a much better way.
Finally, NFP doesn’t know jack about religion. He should keep it shut about issues over which he clearly has no grasp on.
Rahat Abbas Changezi says:
April 12, 2012 at 11:31 am
This article has been posted on LUBP; the points made in the comments section there are a good counter to this article. Go to criticappp dot com and see for yourselves. I will also post this comment there in case PTH attempts to censor it here.
As a Shia muslim in Pakistan, we are aware of the constant danger to our lives and LUBP is at the forefront in highlighting the dangers faced by us and the mass killings of Shias in Pakistan.
Contrary to this article, LUBP has been clear in its criticism of Shia mullahs of MWM in 2-3 different articles. So many people have pointed this out in the comments section also. Why is Raza Rumi lying about this just to slam LUBP?
Why is Raza Rumi misrepresenting #ShiaGenocide as “sectarian violence” – this is not a Shia-Sunni conflict because ASWJ is also targetting Barelvi and Ahmadis. This is incorrect portrayal of the situation and Raza Rumi has been called out on this on LUBP. Instead of responding to it, he has lashed out at them. This has gone against him. Similarly, Raza Rumi supports Saleem Javed, who is spreading the false propaganda that what is happening to the Shia Hazaras in Quetta is “ethnic violence”. This is a lie meant to separate Hazaras from the rest of the Shia population of Pakistan. Non-Hazara Shias have also been killed in Quetta. In 2004, when over 50 Hazaras were massacred on Ashura, the Lashkar –e- Jhangvi killers even wrote Anti-Shia slogans on the bullets that were used to kill Shias! And still Saleem Javed persists with his lies and persists with his propaganda. Please google this as it was covered in Daily Times.
This false propaganda of labeling Shia genocide in Quetta as “ethnic violence” will likely be used to malign the cause of our Baloch brothers in Quetta who are being brutally targeted by FC/army operations while spineless and insensitive Raisani does nothing! Army killing our Baloch nationalist brothers of Quetta fighting for their rights and army-Judiciary supporting ASWJ-Lashkar Jhangvi killers doing Shia Genocide in Pakistan.
LUBP has written many articles on this and yet they are being labeled as “Qum University” pro-mullah blog by Raza Rumi and his friends.
Everyone, please read both sides of the story.
Rahat Abbas Changezi says:
April 12, 2012 at 11:36 am
Please google “A critical analysis of the MWM resolution at the Karachi Shia rally” and “MWM leaders threaten to surround US Consulate to put an end to Shia genocide”. Both are articles critical of Shia ulema originally published on LUBP. LUBP published them even before Nadeem Paracha wrote about this. I found all this info in the comments section.
Raza bhai is not being honest here.
Rahat Abbas Changezi says:
April 12, 2012 at 11:39 am
Also see comment by ex-PTH Shaheryar Ali. It should open some eyes:
——————————-
I have only one thing to say. Very badly written article. If the article was intended to be a criticism , it fails in its purpose , because the writer himself has accepted inaccuracy of his information on both counts. When he states “language error” and “message was lost”,its his failure as a writer , not any one else. He as a socio political activist must be aware of the importance of communication, especially when he is commenting on an issue concerning a community under persecution. Also regarding by his own admission in this very article that the impression he had about Shia clerical presence in DPC was not firmly rooted in rigor of evidence and clarity which one expects from a activist of his stature, i really dont see what substance is left than to criticize? If one has been careless in his work about a community which is burrying loved ones every single day and is faced with a criminal silence by mainstream media , a touch of emotional irratrionality is rather a very “human” behaviour.
If this piece was instead intended to be a protest against “style” of criticism , than it fails even more fundamentally, because unfortunately Mr Rumi adopts the same “bullying” tactics here, generalizing, calling names, passing judgements. Whats moral and ethical about it? Infact the very article given in his piece by a very talented Ali Salman has been published on LUBP. with the exact condemnation of these clerics? So it doesnt make any case for pro theocratic blog if trophy article you are quoting has actually been published and appriciated on the very blog you want us to believe is proxy of theocratic Iranian state. This is a very unfortunate lack of academic rigour. I am actually disappointed! Instead of writing this kind of “thing” if Mr Rumi would have written on plight of Pakistani Shia community who has been abondonmed by state, media, judiciary as well as large section of Liberal activists, it would have been a better defence against theocratic trends within the community. A strong liberal effort to reach out to the community is far better option to check the clerical influence, which is increasing for only one reason that their is no liberal support instead of abstract lectures on secularism! One would actually like to ask that during Nazi Holocaust would One be criticizing Hitler or Rabi of Berlin? Criticizing Catholic cardinal of Berlin would make sense but the Rabi, should he be a priority? Perhaps its a very strange reading of liberalism and secularism in context of state sponsered violence against a persecuted community! In any case , i dont think it needs a response, its self contradicting and lacks seriousness
Abdul Nashtapuri Changezi says:
April 12, 2012 at 12:46 pm
Oye! Who is using my pen name NO 414 Rahat Ali Changezi, dedicated for posting comments under LUBP posts only, it must be an ISI proxy doing this
Riaz ul abbas abul saffahi says:
April 12, 2012 at 1:01 pm
Congratulation LUBP, you have once again engaged people in discussing you, though in irritation, I always believed in the strategy of our Mujtahid Allama Nishapuri allaibaai alSaraahii.
lovelyday says:
April 12, 2012 at 1:12 pm
How sad that both blog are pitting against each other when there is not much a reason for it and rather to focus on Shia genocide, it is felt more important to target each other by calling names. Grow up guys. If you can write good then deliver good as well.
Ali Arqam says:
April 12, 2012 at 1:24 pm
Shia genocide is an issue, every concerned individual should be worried, how to highlight should be the subject of introspection.
We all know, outfits like SSP/ LeJ/ ASWJ are backed by the state in one and another way. In Mush era, when these elements were banned, you hardly could have seen a flag or graffiti on the walls of Karachi.These outfits are part and parcel of the Jihadi industry of the state, the most dangerous precedence is their ability to inflict violence got escalated with the strategic assets turned rogue(at least they pretended so) in the last decade. They were very instrumental in planning and conducting many acts of terrors successfully by attacking security installations in various parts of Punjab, i.e Manawaan, GHQ, FIA building, ISI offices, SIU offices, Parade Lane and even Mehran Base. All these attacks have one thing in common, LeJ/SSP men involvement.
One must not forget that these elements are carriers, facilitators and allies of Al-Qaeda in Pakistan. Targeting Shias is a common trait of Al-Qaeda operations in Pak and Iraq also. Indeed, more problematic is state’s tendency of appeasing these Jihadis to prevent them from from being part of such actions, and the change can be seen in ASWJ rhetorics of “Pakistan Bachain gey”. It is very unfortunate that Shias are the casualty of the settlement and working relationship between the State and SSP/LeJ.
The same way, bombing, killings and cleansing of Pashtuns is on the cards of Pakistan security establishment to enforce their version of Afghan narrative, portraying it as Pashtun resentment on the ousting of from the powers of their brethren in Afghanistan by the alleged Foreign invaders. These issues should not be subject of Cynicism and Satire. For God Sake!!
Ali K Chishti says:
April 12, 2012 at 7:22 pm
I endorse RR’s every word.
YLH says:
April 12, 2012 at 7:28 pm
Proudbaloch, I see you still smarting from your inability to get me banned from twitter.
Raza bhai,
Excellent article. I warned you about crooks. Sherry Ali X being one. Also I must warn you against Ali Arqam. Similar crook.
Aamir Nawaz Khan says:
April 12, 2012 at 7:32 pm
Fantastic pieace Raza Bhai. You have justified mistakes of both sides (Shias & Sunnis) misusing & misleading Islam & Muslims. I wish you could’ve realized these fake platform like LUBP is nothing just to spread hate everywhere in society.
KMR Overseas says:
April 12, 2012 at 7:45 pm
@ Raza Rumi
For you it is agenda, but for persecuted minorities it is their voice to the outside world.
To Raza Rumi- and – LUBP –
“not managed by real people ….fake identities. ..but by individuals who have no moral courage to reveal their names. …cowards are not furthering the progressive agenda but sabotaging it.”
I use my real identity, and have paid an occasional price for it in harassment even here in the U.S. and compromised IT issues, so, I do understand why some choose “pen names.” I don’t think it is “cowardly” to be careful around the ISI, which is a frequent target of blogs ferreting out the truth. But, this is an unfortunate distraction and bruised egos are flying about, when there are more pressing issues in Pakistan to write about.
Frankly, I have always enjoyed reading all of you- LUBP, Friday Times (I have a close friend, a brave journalist, whom I think still works there), and Pak Tea House Blog –So, is this battle is unnecessary? even though I have had it explained to me and am reading the twitter and blog insults. What a shame, what appears to be a temper-fueled battle of slurs, when the philosophy is so close.
There are too few progressive Pakistanis here in Pakistan to alienate each other at this point. My advice is to listen a little more carefully to each other and if there are issues, call each other up! Talk on the cell! Okay, naive?
Enemies make sure this happens to “Divide and conquer.”
In my humble (and perhaps uninformed American mind) I think the three publications for the most part are pro-secular and pro-pluralism in ideals in the context of a democratic Pakistan.
I do, however, question: to throw Iranian-Khomeini-related slurs at LUBP because we dare to report on an underreported subject of targeted Shia massacres in Pakistan, is unfair, and a stretch. LUBP has consistently been critical of the Shia clerical alliance, in fact, highly critical of MWM- Shia doesn’t always equal Iran, any more than Sunni equals KSA.
If I thought that LUBP was determined to “undermine Pakistan’s liberal and secular minority” I wouldn’t have joined their writing staff.
Your comment, “true to our firm stand that Pakistani state has to become secular and the influence and role of ALL Mullahs needs to be removed from politics.” I find to be consistent with LUBP articles and ideology and certainly mine.
I hope this battle dies out, inflammatory language returns to thoughtful dialogue, and we can again approach serious journalism on a less incendiary level.
Saleem Javed @mSaleemJaved
Syed Jawad Naqvi, LUBP’s favorite ‘Shia scholar’ and Khamenie’s mouthpiece inciting violence against non-Shia http://youtu.be/WrR30rZargg
View video
1h Saleem Javed @mSaleemJaved
To be noted that Al-Quds Day has no religious status in Shia Islam. It was a political stunt introduced by Khomeini against Israel.
1h Saleem Javed @mSaleemJaved
Syed Jawad Naqvi calls the Shias of Quetta ‘Munafiq’, ‘Be-shaoor’ & coward after they denied going violent. http://youtu.be/oar5nODyaxQ
View video
1h Saleem Javed @mSaleemJaved
Syed Jawad Naqvi-entitled ‘Shia Scholar’ by #LUBP-insulting Hazara Shias & ending up blaming Blackwater
This Saleem Javed is really the height of dishonesty. This is the mention of Jawad Naqvi on LUBP; an article cross posted from another website. Actually, this goes against Saleem Javed as Jawad Naqvi was being critical of DPC. So a shia cleric who is critical of DPC in a far more bolder tone than Raza and his “liberal” gangs should not deserve mention. What a silly arguement.
“A Shia Muslim scholar Allama Jawad Naqvi exposes the Saudi-ISI plan to revive a repackaged version of General Zia-ul-Haq Group (Religio-political fascists) in Pakistan
In this post, we present a thought provoking analysis by a Shia scholar on the re-emergence of Imran Khan’s Pakistan Tehreek-e-Insaf (PTI) with the help of Pakistan army (ISI in particular) and its Jihadi-sectarian affiliates (e.g., Sipah-e-Sahaba Pakistan (aka Lashkar-e-Jhangvi), Jamaat-ud-Dawa (aka Lashkar-e-Taiba), Jamaat-e-Islami etc. Given that the speaker in this video (Allama Jawad Naqvi) offers an analysis based on his particular ideological and political point of view, we do not necessarily agree with all of his arguments, however, given that Shia Muslims are the most target killed faith group in Pakistan, it is our ethical duty to pay attention to their perspectives and attempt to redress their grievances.
http://criticalppp.com/archives/68795
Instead of falling into false neutrality, I will loudly and clearly say that Raza Rumi’s stance is wrong, particularly in view of the fact that he not only misrepresented Shia genocide in various articles in TFT, JI, PTH but is actually trying to silence the only significant voice (LUBP) which is highlighting Shia genocide.
Imagine if LUBP stops projecting Shia genocide, that would mean a complete blackout in English social media.
Raza is right in saying that LUBP was criticizing Raza unfairly BUT Raza your comment about Nishapuri are also not good….Please Please this seems to be nothing but little misunderstanding….for us you both are real secular and liberal voices of Pakistan….
I cannot believe some of the ambivalent comments. The one blog that gives a bold voice for PPP, against Judiciary and for Baloch, Shias, Pashtuns is being attacked by the Punjabi media elite and this is the response of some
that LUBP should accept the false allegations against it and do a compromised truce! @Ahmed Baloch @Shoaib Mir, puri kahaani parh lau and khud faisla karo!
I have only one thing to say. Very badly written article. If the article was intended to be a criticism , it fails in its purpose , because the writer himself has accepted inaccuracy of his information on both counts. When he states “language error” and “message was lost”,its his failure as a writer , not any one else. He as a socio political activist must be aware of the importance of communication, especially when he is commenting on an issue concerning a community under persecution. Also regarding by his own admission in this very article that the impression he had about Shia clerical presence in DPC was not firmly rooted in rigor of evidence and clarity which one expects from a activist of his stature, i really dont see what substance is left than to criticize? If one has been careless in his work about a community which is burrying loved ones every single day and is faced with a criminal silence by mainstream media , a touch of emotional irratrionality is rather a very “human” behaviour.
If this piece was instead intended to be a protest against “style” of criticism , than it fails even more fundamentally, because unfortunately Mr Rumi adopts the same “bullying” tactics here, generalizing, calling names, passing judgements. Whats moral and ethical about it? Infact the very article given in his piece by a very talented Ali Salman has been published on LUBP. with the exact condemnation of these clerics? So it doesnt make any case for pro theocratic blog if trophy article you are quoting has actually been published and appriciated on the very blog you want us to believe is proxy of theocratic Iranian state. This is a very unfortunate lack of academic rigour. I am actually disappointed! Instead of writing this kind of “thing” if Mr Rumi would have written on plight of Pakistani Shia community who has been abondonmed by state, media, judiciary as well as large section of Liberal activists, it would have been a better defence against theocratic trends within the community. A strong liberal effort to reach out to the community is far better option to check the clerical influence, which is increasing for only one reason that their is no liberal support instead of abstract lectures on secularism! One would actually like to ask that during Nazi Holocaust would One be criticizing Hitler or Rabi of Berlin? Criticizing Catholic cardinal of Berlin would make sense but the Rabi, should he be a priority? Perhaps its a very strange reading of liberalism and secularism in context of state sponsered violence against a persecuted community! In any case , i dont think it needs a response, its self contradicting and lacks seriousness
No self respecting Jiyala would take PTH seriously. Yasser Latif Hamdani is a pucca PTI fan but recently even he was too embarassed to continue supporting them. However, he never lets go of any opportunity to throw mud at Bhutto and blame a dead man for more than his fair share. Do a google of YLH, editor of PTH and see his fawning articles of Imran Khan after the Lahore Jalsa. Did Raza Rumi say anything to his own fellow editor at PTH about his recent romance with PTI – the party so deeply and openly engaged with DPC?? Double standards anyone…But ofcourse, unlike LUBP, Yasser’s abusive language is there for all to see. Just read the comments by Yasser in his own post here:
http://criticalppp.com/archives/28702
So Raza Rumi has no problems with his “Secular” co-editor Yasser Latif Hamdani’s recent praise for PTI http://www.dailytimes.com.pk/default.asp?page=2011%5C11%5C21%5Cstory_21-11-2011_pg3_5 and here http://www.dailytimes.com.pk/default.asp?page=2011%5C09%5C19%5Cstory_19-9-2011_pg3_6 before he extricates himself a few months later here http://www.dailytimes.com.pk/default.asp?page=2012%5C02%5C20%5Cstory_20-2-2012_pg3_4.
Yet you critisize LUBP on blatantly false allegations. Double standards!!
@Shaheryar, there are double standards. One standard for those who stand with PPP when it is correct, another for our media elites. Very few will care if Rumi is wrong, which he clearly is, and if LUBP stands vindicated, which it clearly seems to. I see many of the comments in support of LUBP and they have all the LUBP’s own articles proving Rumi wrong. But yet, there are some comments that want LUBP to respond!
You have also read both sides but you and some others who have written well researched comments here are atleast being honest. But go on twitter and all the media elites are sharpening their knives against LUBP.
Its pretty sad to see how the liberals a head on with each other. I guess there is a mere misunderstanding, and I see Raza took a hasty decision on writing this article(Critique). I have few questions from Raza-
1. Don’t you think LUBP has been the blog on the forefont to criticize PPP and its members for last four years?
2. Don’t you think there is a massacre of Shiite muslims across Pakistan, leave Gilgit-Baltistan alone.
3. Don’t you think LUBP was the first one to criticize the MWM and called them strategy of ISI to divide the Shiites into two groups? and to brig them head on with DPC?
4. Were there any articles on over the Shiite Killings- Specially Hazara shias of Quetta in PAK TEA HOUSE?
5. Was there any Pro-Iranian articles supporting the Shiite clergy in this nblog- except for the blasts and miseries that Shiites of Pakistan had to go through?
6. There was no shiite and Christians in the DPC. And DPC would never take SHIITES on board for their hatred against sgainst shiites, Qadianis, Christians, and Hindus is not hidden.
I would love to hear from you-
I am against calling each other ISI and CIA agents. Kindly avoid that.
jamil Khakwani – List of 6 Beautiful dialectics.
I have also posted this comment on PTH.
—
This article has been posted on LUBP; the points made in the comments section there are a good counter to this article. Go to criticappp dot com and see for yourselves. I will also post this comment there in case PTH attempts to censor it here.
As a Shia muslim in Pakistan, we are aware of the constant danger to our lives and LUBP is at the forefront in highlighting the dangers faced by us and the mass killings of Shias in Pakistan.
Contrary to this article, LUBP has been clear in its criticism of Shia mullahs of MWM in 2-3 different articles. So many people have pointed this out in the comments section also. Why is Raza Rumi lying about this just to slam LUBP?
Why is Raza Rumi misrepresenting #ShiaGenocide as “sectarian violence” – this is not a Shia-Sunni conflict because ASWJ is also targetting Barelvi and Ahmadis. This is incorrect portrayal of the situation and Raza Rumi has been called out on this on LUBP. Instead of responding to it, he has lashed out at them. This has gone against him. Similarly, Raza Rumi supports Saleem Javed, who is spreading the false propaganda that what is happening to the Shia Hazaras in Quetta is “ethnic violence”. This is a lie meant to separate Hazaras from the rest of the Shia population of Pakistan. Non-Hazara Shias have also been killed in Quetta. In 2004, when over 50 Hazaras were massacred on Ashura, the Lashkar –e- Jhangvi killers even wrote Anti-Shia slogans on the bullets that were used to kill Shias! And still Saleem Javed persists with his lies and persists with his propaganda. Please google this as it was covered in Daily Times.
This false propaganda of labeling Shia genocide in Quetta as “ethnic violence” will likely be used to malign the cause of our Baloch brothers in Quetta who are being brutally targeted by FC/army operations while spineless and insensitive Raisani does nothing! Army killing our Baloch nationalist brothers of Quetta fighting for their rights and army-Judiciary supporting ASWJ-Lashkar Jhangvi killers doing Shia Genocide in Pakistan.
LUBP has written many articles on this and yet they are being labeled as “Qum University” pro-mullah blog by Raza Rumi and his friends.
Everyone, please read both sides of the story.
Ada Somro
If they are sharpening their knives, let them. LUBP has more important duties , like speaking about Shia and Baloch genocides.
They have become a joke in eyes of independent reviewers! More they would bully LUBP more they will strengthen the case of LUBP
What is going on here….total nonsense and boo boo.
Hey guys Raza Rumi and Nishapuri I know you both spend all your time on internet and your respective blogs and therefore would not have got the chance to read newspapers to learn that our Rehman Malik has said it many times in press conferences that foreign forces are killing Shia and Sunni and are trying to destabalize Pakistan. I must advise both RR and NL to heed to Rehman Malik’s statements and do believe him without using your own knowledge faculties.
Now there is no reason for you two to fight cyber skunk wars.
P.S: It will be a big mistake by the not-so-Let.Us.Bully.Pakistan editorial board to publish a rejoinder to the one and only RR’s artical. He may be in his constipation + mahvari days 😉
After Rahat posted on Pak Tea House, the whole conversation has degenerated into farce and name calling. It seems that PTH does not have any arguements left; it is debatable if they ever did, especially in their callous disregard towards Shia Genocide in Pakistan.
Ada Shaheryar, you are correct. We need to move on. LUBP needs to write more on the forcible conversion of Hindus in Sindh which is causing them to leave their ancient homeland. It is very traggic and PPP MNA and Supreme Court CJ have both played a horrible role.
Shia genocide is an issue, every concerned individual should be worried, how to highlight should be the subject of introspection.
We all know, outfits like SSP/ LeJ/ ASWJ are backed by the state in one and another way. In Mush era, when these elements were banned, you hardly could have seen a flag or graffiti on the walls of Karachi.These outfits are part and parcel of the Jihadi industry of the state, the most dangerous precedence is their ability to inflict violence got escalated with the strategic assets turned rogue(at least they pretended so) in the last decade. They were very instrumental in planning and conducting many acts of terrors successfully by attacking security installations in various parts of Punjab, i.e Manawaan, GHQ, FIA building, ISI offices, SIU offices, Parade Lane and even Mehran Base. All these attacks have one thing in common, LeJ/SSP men involvement.
One must not forget that these elements are carriers, facilitators and allies of Al-Qaeda in Pakistan. Targeting Shias is a common trait of Al-Qaeda operations in Pak and Iraq also. Indeed, more problematic is state’s tendency of appeasing these Jihadis to prevent them from from being part of such actions, and the change can be seen in ASWJ rhetorics of “Pakistan Bachain gey”. It is very unfortunate that Shias are the casualty of the settlement and working relationship between the State and SSP/LeJ.
The same way, bombing, killings and cleansing of Pashtuns is on the cards of Pakistan security establishment to enforce their version of Afghan narrative, portraying it as Pashtun resentment on the ousting of from the powers of their brethren in Afghanistan by the alleged Foreign invaders. These issues should not be subject of Cynicism and Satire. For God Sake!!
As Raza Rumi had referred to my disagreements with Abdul and leaving the blog, I want to clarify that I didn’t leave LUBP for my disagreements with Abdul/Laibaah and Maula Baksh Thaddani, as I have never hesitated in expressing my disagreements in internal discussions as well as in the comments section of the posts, i have disagreed to, and I was entitled to do so, as LUBP was initially a group blog where we were pursuing a pro-political forces, pro-Human rights, progressive and plural agenda.It was neither under a creed nor an oath to follow or believe.
I was expelled suddenly after my criticism of Laibaah/Abdul post about HRCP and HRW and attacking Ali Dayan Hassan. I was contributing to LUBP with three authors accounts and half a dozen pen names, all of my accounts were terminated with a single click in a moment.
I have not left LUBP. in fact am thrown out. Still Abdul is tweeting against me with his another pseudonym Laibaah,
Ali Arqam @aliarqam
RT @smhaider: Lololol whtta tweet. RT @Laibaah1: If you want your personal details revealed to the ISI, share them with Ali Arqam and…..
Since ISI is paying me for this all, also fiction, faction about ISI is trending in blogs, write ups and moviews as well, it will be interesting to hear it from the horse’s mouth
@Ali Arqam
It was a joint decision by all ACTIVE editors to relieve you from the LUBP Board. You know the reasons very well which I don’t want to discuss in this thread.
Please refrain from recycling false propaganda and lies in an opportunistic and acontextual manner.
Let’s focus on those who are silent on Shia genocide and those who are misrepresenting it as a sectarian or ethnic violence. That is much more important than personal grudges.
arqam,
so you agree it is Shia genocide as LUBP has been correctly saying for so long.
Why is Raza Rumi calling this “sectarian violence” and why is he supporting Saleem Javaid who is calling it “ethnic violence” . This is not honest on their role as Shias are being killed in planned way all over Pakistan. Then you agree with them on Twitter but here you so say it is “Shia Genocide”. Please take stand and be consistency.
Also, what you mean “satire and cynicism”? I don’t understand ur point at all. LUBP saying for very long time that this is Shia Genocide and you know that wrong definition of something (by RR and S. Javed) that take 100’s of Shia lives is no laughing matter
“Please refrain from recycling false propaganda and lies in an opportunistic and acontextual manner.”
Neither i am a career journalist nor I have any ambitions, stop using nonsensical words, I had to clarify as the posts have referred to it.If you have any problem with that, Delete my comments.
@Sajjad
I don’t need a certification of my views from Abdul/Laibaah etc. What I have been writing since last three years and interacting at social media is available to have a view of what is my views.
“Also, what you mean “satire and cynicism”? I don’t understand ur point at all” I meant that post
“Congratulations on Chilas victory”
http://criticalppp.com/archives/75562
@Ali Arqam,
You got thrown out by the LUBP board. Now I see why you RT Rumi sahib’s article against LUBP and are in the same company as anti-Shia people Aamir Mughal and Professor Saleem Ali. From ur comments you are not anti-Shia but are now friends with the same people that hate LUBP.
Everytime someone attacks LUBP, you side with them. It must have been a correct decision by LUBP to throw you out as you not reliable. I support MQM but like LUBP for its bold coverage of #ShiaGenocide and for not being bullied into accepting wrong pov. Now I understand the confept of Lota. Like PPP keeps getting stung by ex-PPP LOTA who were thrown out or left this political party, you are LUBP lota who is now siding with PTH – the same PTH whose editor Yasser Latif Hamdani cursed and abused you on this very website. You say you write with many pen names but now have different standards for other people in LUBP and say you don’t interact with Nishapuri sahib bcos of pen name issue.
Puckay lota ho tum! LOL!
I read that article by Riaz Malik. Everyone knows he is a good satirist. However, his point of view comes across LOUD and CLEAR and he uses satire to good effect to make point that it is Shia Genocide. He also expose media lies on this topic. So you critisize LUBP for publishing different articles that use good writing to highlight the pain of Shias/Shia genocide but you don’t critisize Raza Rumi for being dishonest about such important issue. What a hypocrite!
I googled and found out the reason why LUBP was critical of Ali Dayan and it was because of the same reason that as a human rights activist, he was fudging Shia Genocide issue. Then LUBP also was the first to support him. So LUBP operates on some principle.
Not like this Ali Arqam.
Ali Arqam, Please spare us. Why are you confusing this issue. Its not about you. Shame on you and Shame on Raza Rumi; Shias are being killed en masse and you all are worried about your petty egos. Who cares whether you are with LUBP or not. Personally, I am glad you are not because no one likes to be undermined from within which is what you seem to be doing when I read all comments.
I have been following Ali Arqam’s hobnobbing with Beena Sarwar, Raza Rumi, Saleem Javed, Shahid Saeed, Urooj Zia for quite some time.
In fact I feel sympathy for LUBP and Nishapuri guy. He has been caught in the cross-fire. Arqam, Beena and Raza Rumi’s main target are Pakistan Blogzine and its editor Laibah Marri.
I have extracted some tweets in chronological order:
6 April:
Ali Arqam @aliarqam Reply
RT @smhaider: Lololol whtta tweet. RT @Laibaah1: If you want your personal details revealed to the ISI, share them with Ali Arqam and…
However, much before Laibaah’s counter-attack on Arqam, Arqam had been attacking Laibah on 29 to 31 March along with Saleem Javed and Raza Rumi.
………..
31 March:
http://pakistanblogzine.wordpress.com/2012/03/29/new-activists-against-shia-genocide-on-twitter/#comment-4887
Ali Arqam @aliarqam Reply Retweet Favorite · Open
RT @Razarumi: @mSaleemJaved I did not believe you earlier but you are right about the identities of fake activists. The recent post proves that. Shame.
Ali Arqam @aliarqam Reply Retweet Favorite · Open
RT @Razarumi: RT @AliDayan: @RazaRumi Not only are the Laibah’s of the world intellectually dishonest cowards, …
Ali Arqam @aliarqam Reply Retweet Favorite · Open
RT @mSaleemJaved: Somebody’s poodle who spreads hatred against Hazaras. Trolls their supporters. RT @azad10: … http://m.tmi.me/nG4nW
Ali Arqam @aliarqam Reply Retweet Favorite · Open
RT @mSaleemJaved: Mullah Abdul Nishapuri complains that he is left alone by Shia activists and then equates …
Mariyam Baluch @brranzz Reply Retweet Favorite · Open
why Paki liberals u r vocal against Laibah who expose u but not a word against @therealylh racist remarks, lies & rhetoric & provocation?
Let’s play victim victim, Ali Arqam and Raza Rumi.
@Sajjad hussain @Sukaina
I know all these tactics of ridiculing someone, calling him hypocrite whatever by commenting with different names. As have suffered this for my own posts here on LUBP, though I had the access to come to know, who is commenting with many names with the same IP.
Here its an example
Tristam Perry says:
July 18, 2011 at 4:35 am
There you go again, LUDP, casting your allegations. This critique is (1/2) another personal attack. Look at your atrocious language “douchebaggery”. Also, (2/2) LUDP authors use pen names.
Now get this straight LUDP: ONLY WE WHO ARE CIVIL SOCIETY CAN USE PEN NAMES AND CALL YOU “TWISTED IDIOTS” FOR CALLING OUT WHAT YOU THINK IS HOMOPHOBIA BUT WHICH WE DISMISS AS PRACTICAL JOKE.
We will block your trolls, we will block you and then we will block your site, you dirty jiyalas. The web, blogsphere and twitter are OUR domain so get the hell out. We are the true liberals of Pakistan and being a true liberal means that one should have the decency to curse PPP and their leaders and supporters and supporters of Baloch, Hazara and Pushtun rights. Now bugger off!
Five Paisas says:
July 18, 2011 at 4:48 am
Way to go Tristam, give it to these LUDP ethnofascist storm troopers!
Kalakuta says:
July 18, 2011 at 4:51 am
Way to go Tristam man! Great seeing you at the amazing dinner thrown by Tammy in Isloo. We liberals need to stick together. We should coordinate agains and block LUDPers from Twitters this time.
The Real McCoy says:
July 18, 2011 at 4:52 am
Jiye Altaf. LUDP has been taken over by ethno-nationalist storm troopers. I have voted for PPP but completely support MQM in the latest situation in Karachi.
Ali Arqam says:
July 18, 2011 at 5:07 am
The above comments posted under the name of Tristam Perry, Five Paisas, Kalakuta and The Real McCoy have One person behind this, Whose IP address is 116.71.41.41,
I will post more details also
Better trying something else…
yet another comments with a new name, Lage raho Abdul Bhai
@Munir, omg! This Ali Arqam is a fraud who is simply taking revenge against LUBP for throwing him out. My question to LUBP is: Did you investigate this hypocrite before trusting him on this blog. I have not seen any article by Ali Arqam for some time. It just shows that he must not have been a very productive member in the first place.
“I know all these tactics of ridiculing someone, calling him hypocrite whatever by commenting with different names. As have suffered this for my own posts here on LUBP, though I had the access to come to know, who is commenting with many names with the same IP.”
Speaking from experience, are we? LOL! So when you did these things, it was ok but you want to make allegations your ex-team for it. Zabardast.
I am out of this thread as my purpose not to ridicule you but to ask you where you stand and who is wrong on this important issue? LUBP or Raza Rumi/TFT/ET.
You say it is Shia Genocide but then come blasting out with your venom against LUBP for saying same and curiously, you stay silent on Raza Rumi, Saleem Javed and be their friends on twitter.
So far, no response from you on the main topic of Shia Genocide, just diversionary tactics. I think you have exposed your self and what is more, evaded the questions completely.
I dont think its fair to label Ali Arqam. Whatever article he has written so far have shown that he has stated facts as fatcs and has valueable contributions to LUBP. What has happened has happened. We tried our best that it shouldnt have happened that way! But what i found really objectionable that Mr Rumi is quik to bring out names of a collegue, who faced intimidaton and bullying at his blog and many other progressive writers have faced this bullying and name calling on his blog by his staff but he has never actually tried to stop it. Its really not very decent to cry bullying when infact one himself have tolerated and encouraged this practice.
Also Ali Arqam i think it would have been better if you would have focused on this important discussion in an objective manner! It was not a platform to bring up your differences with LUBP board at this point of time. Many of us dont agree to many decisions of LUBP borad. I certainly dont agree with one about you. But the way Mr Rumi has built up his case, its really absurd, contradictory, manipulative and doesnt comply with any standard of decency. One cannot criticize indecency by become indecent himself.
You i think had a higher moral ground here , you shouldnt loose that.
You are very much familiar that Pak Tea House blog is actually pioneer of bullying , name calling and this kind of non sense in name of criticism. You know what has happened to many times who refuse to pay homeage to Jinnah temple at PTH.You are aware of witch hunt against many left wing commentators which has taken place at PTH. Mr Rumi has always failed to stop it, in pre text of “freedom of expression”. I really dont see why he is now complaining. If he allows writers being termed as traitors, Pinkos, Indian agents on his blog, he has no moral right to complain.
I from the start have been a critic of this kind of behaviour from any blog. But here this is not the issue. Its the issue of double standards clearly on part of Mr Rumi
Hahaha… Imy guru was Damn right about this ethno fascist, Al Qaeda operative and Katti Pahari terrorist. At least LUBP is convinced, Ali Arqam is a fraud
May I request the moderators to expunge the personal attacks that were started by Ali Arqam in the comments section.
There are mulitiple rallies by Shias protesting against Shia Genocide and we should not be discussing petty personal issues.
@Abdul bhai, please check out Shia Killing and Shias of Pakistan facebook page for more details. There is media blackout and it seems some people interested in settling personal scores with LUBP and taking attention away from this topic. Nice talking to you the other day and please stay safe and do not let this harassment stop you and LUBP team from being one of the few blogs that are doing anything about this.
There will always be those who will undermine you but LUBP must not falter.
@Shaheryar, thanks for your note. I apologize if my comments wrong and willing to accept my mistake. Please tell me if I am wrong in my questions to Ali Arqam. I am not interested in personal name calling started by him on this thread but I would appreciate answer to my question on where he stands with the issue whether it is LUBP or Raza Rumi/TFT which is wrong. He says Shia genocide but then attacks LUBP for saying same. Nothing to Raza Rumi group for misrepresenting. Why different standards? that is all I ask.
Another new voice assimilated (may I say corrupted) by famous Raza Rumi.
Ali Salman Alvi @alisalmanalvi 12 April
@Razarumi I’ve great respect for you regardless of what anyone else has to say about you. It’s been a pleasure knowing you. Take a bow
@Sherry
You and most of my ex colleagues know my stand on these issues,I don’t care what they are calling me, as it doesn’t make any difference. Please, don’t misuderstand what I have clarified above, as RR in his post has written that I left LUBP for my differences so I had to clarfify this which Abdul has called as opportunism etc etc.
As for as the so called Twitter monitors of my profile are concerned for their selective pick and chose, they must not forget my public criticism of Raza Rumi for publishing a false and ridiculing post on Balochistan by Yasser which was full of personal attacks on DT colunist Dr Taqi who has written in support of Baloch right of self determination.
That post and my tweets are available on Abdul’s offshoot Pakistan Blogzine. But LUBP has turned into All India Muslim League of playing same tactics of AIML and Abdul playing as Jinnah, the solespokesman of Shia whom he insisting on the status of minority, the way Jamaat Islami has opposed Jinnah but indirectly supported AIML rhetorics, Abdul is echoing ASWJ for portraying Shias as minority as well as alienating him from the main stream resistance against the state which has nothing to offer to its subjects except tyranny, killing and persecution whether Sindhis, Balochs, Pashtuns or Ahmedis, Shias, Christians or Hindus.
If Ali Arqam can critisize Raza Rumi on Yasser Latif’s bad article on Balochistan, why is he not critisizing Raza Rumi on his own false representation of Shia Genocide? He is actually bashing LUBP for saying the same thing.
Thats why i really always criticize this style of engagement. Intellectuals personalizing the arguments. Its whats happening now on this threat. we are busy calling each other names, monitoring each other twitters etc.
All these energies should have been put on monitoring our enemies and doing quality research into Shia genocide and methods of stopping. Now this thread is becoming slanders vs conter slanders and i refuse to become part of it
@ Mr. Raza Rumi….
It doesn’t matter the location of Abdul Nishapuri but what matters is what the article deals about. In the world of internet, location is meaningless and as example we all know hardly any journalists in Gilgit-Baltistan but Pakistani media littered with events of G-B. How come your logic of location holds good!
LUPB air the voice of the oppressed Pakistanis is unquestionable as of now.
The dubious blog award in Pakistani blogosphere goes to – Rupeenews operated by Moin Ansari from NJ-USA. Mr Moin operates under the façade of Tikkun community (a respectable Jewish multi-faith organization) but his agenda totally contradictory to Tikkun and is evident in his blog. (The same guy posting article and also writing comment is another joke in Rupeenews..LOL). It is sad that Tikkun didn’t make the background checking of Moin Ansari till date.
@Sajjd Hussain
Because, I don’t agree with anyone using sensitive issues (involving systematic killing of a community i.e Shias) for attacking individuals, though we have a right to show disagreement to their views and how they portray issues.
I didn’t agree to RR for his portrayal of Shia genocide as Sectarian killings but I agreed to what he has written about clerics and mullas of all sects. In fact the same was said by Sherry also in his comments below Ali Salman Alvi post. And LUBP too has not hesitated from saying this, then why Raza has to be criticised.
Its true, Raza Rumi has limitations when as a main stream writer, he writes on issues aka Balochistan, who may highlight the crisis there, the massive human rights violations there, the lack of state response and Govt inability to put some steps directly without the consent of security establishment but can’t use words like genocide etc, when we had to write this all with many pen names and different identities, how we can expect others to put themselves to risk.
On Monday, President Zardari while speaking in a function at President house, said that people of Swat have invited Taliban to rule them” for such remarks we can call him misinformed or voicing establishment views etc but can’t allege him of being a proxy etc as he is leading a political party which has most progressive credentials as well as which allows its activists, leadership to differ to his opinion, criticise him for that and have alternative view of the happenings around apart from the dominant state narrative.
Raza is progressive afterall, who always supported political forces, and opposed Islamism, Islamist parties, alliances like DifaePak JuD, he was the one who spoke against Humaira Iqtidar scholarship work calling JuD and JI as secularising society with humanitarian works, has always supported PPP, and was the one who supported LUBP editors at Socail media summit(Junaid Qaiser can confirm), also when we criticised Samad K for calling Qadri a lone wolf, he supported us at KLF last year while Many friends were criticising us, but new comers at LUBP don’t this all.
Ali Arqam, thanks for the clarification. And I don’t agree with this stmt of Zardari as his own statement does not seem consistent with his past statements against militancy.
I read the first post on Raza Rumi (which is all here in comments thread) and it was critical of him because of his reporting on Shia genocide. There was nothing personal and all article was simply refuting his article in TFT.
1. What is wrong with this criticism as long as it is non-abusive and not making personal attack? Also, the issue of Shia Genocide is much bigger than Raza Rumi. If criticism is on valid grounds, is that not a good thing as atleast truth of Shia Genocide coming out instead of vague, confusing term like “Shia Genocide”
2. Now in same breadth you say that bold articles can be written with pen names. So by your own logic, pen names are important and you owe some apology for trying to place two different people together as possibly same. Who knows who they are; important thing is what they write.
If they can write things that Raza Rumi cannot write, then does it even matter if one of the pen names could even be Raza Rumi. If the use of pen names allow for writing proper discourse and use of real name like Raza Rumi does not allow for clear, direct writing, they why you and Raza Rumi attack LUBP which you claim uses pen names.
You have to agree then that it is possibly that it is the use of pen names by committed activists that allows for full talk to come out. Yes, pen names should not be used for abusing someone.
However, in history, it is mostly pen names allow ppl to say things that one cannot say with real name. If LUBP has some ppl with pen names, then let them be. Yes, if those pen names are saying curse words, abuse then point out those examples and ask Abdul bhai to delete abusive discourse.
Also, I no agree with everything LUBP say. For me, while ppl talk about safe topics, Shias being killed in droves and only MWM speak out for them on the ground. LUBP can disagree with MWM and they have. see again comments were LUBP has written against MWM, and many ppl here repeat, LUBP write against MWM for some time now. Then why Raza bhai article distort the issue and show LUBP on same page as MWM.
Also, pls don’t take this wrong way, but bhai jaan, you fighting with Abdul bhai is not nice to see. write to him in private. Or better, just agree to part ways and don’t keep bringing up why it happened. It makes us very uncomfortable. LUBP doing good work for Shias, minorities and for us, choice of which blog to read is very, very clear. Raza bhai seems like he WAS very supportive of LUBP before but now, these are times of strain. I don’t like what Raza bhai write in TFT on this topic and it don’t matter to me if LUBP wallas some use pen names. what they write is very correct. Let end debate here. In peace.
previous comment “vague confusing term like Shia genocide” correct to “vague confusing term like sectarian violence”
Reading from post and comment section it is important to point out misleading facts . 1. several LUBP authors have written against ISO and politics of al qudus rally . 2nd Majority of recent about Shia genocide or shia killing which ever way you like to call it is about target killing incident .
I don’t understand logic of our friends , what message their are giving to families of those who killed ‘ Since your cleric participated in DPC so you don’t have any right to complain !
Some people from persecuted community may have participated in (DPC) the council of persecuting community, that confirms what? People have no choice to stay away from persecuting gang while being persecuted on daily basis, that is to survive while terrorists & murderers around.
Raza Rumi @Razarumi
Am not blind to the fact that immense pressure exerted by agencies on the clerics. Needs to be documented
Same pressure on fake liberals, same pressure on clerics.
Both are pardoned.
@Sajjad
Using pen names is centuries old tradition among intellectuals and scholars for writing dissenting books and scholarly works. I have also used, and even Ali Arqam’ is a pen name.
Am not here to defend flaws in RR post
Allow me to say that many comments on this thread whether they intend to chastise Raza Rumi or defend LUBP, may have unwittingly been counter-productive. That said I feel rather pained than provoked at some comments that were more in the nature of attacks on my person. So, would restrict myself to simply setting the record straight as follows.
Jamil Rind (comment #36) says: April 11, 2012 at 6:15 pm
“@Shoaib, don’t your write for LUBP? It is strange that you are asking them to respond to this unfair and unsubstantiated article by your friend, Raza Rumi. Do you even read LUBP?? Have you not seen the articles against Shia clergy?”
Yes, I do write for LUBP! Yes, I do read the blog at my pleasure, not necessarily every post. No, I haven’t seen the article against Shia clergy. Why, is that mandatory for every member or contributor? It certainly isn’t strange at all to ask LUBP to respond, especially when, the Editor Abdul Nishapuri (comment #5) himself says: April 11, 2012 at 2:50 pm
“@Arun: One of our editors will write a response but not immediately. We are not reactive. It’s time to welcome Raza Rumi’s criticism with open heart and give full consideration to his remarks.”
Now doesn’t it sound even stranger? Has Mr. Nishapuri not read the article against the Shia clergy? Is he condoning RR’s “unfair and unsubstantiated” article?
Jamil Rind further laments: “@ LUBP: sad to see that your own can’t even be bothered to read up the articles on your site before they line up with the very people trashing you. You all are a pro-PPP site, correct. so you must be used to getting stabbed in the back. Get used to it even more as I think Shoaib Mir is doing the honours this time.”
Most of it is already answered except of course the indecent personal dig it takes at me at the end. Putting it very mildly, it’s the pretender mindset that claims to monopolize Hoob e Ali but betrays bughz e Muaawiya. Again, suffice to quote:
“Editor’s note: Our friend Raza Rumi (editor of Pak Tea House blog and The Friday Times) has published a critical post on LUBP and its editors. We are not averse to criticism and are pleased to cross-post his article from Pak Tea House without any editing or comments. (Abdul Nishapuri)”
Would one accuse Mr Nishapuri of stabbing the blog/PPP in the back? No?
That I believe also answers a certain Bhuttoist (comment#39): April 11, 2012 at 6:36 pm “I cannot believe some of the ambivalent comments. The one blog that gives a bold voice for PPP, against Judiciary and for Baloch, Shias, Pashtuns is being attacked by the Punjabi media elite and this is the response of some that LUBP should accept the false allegations against it and do a compromised truce! @Ahmed Baloch @Shoaib Mir, puri kahaani parh lau and khud faisla karo!” As also one Nasir Hazara (comment #32) says: April 11, 2012 at 5:11 pm Some Comments From PTH Shoaib Mir says: April 11, 2012 at 1:10 pm “We have had enough of Mullahs and their ignorance for decades.” This is quite literally the bottom line. Very convincing.
Quite unlike the above barbs, there are some commentators that essentially emphasized the same point that I have despite them having apparently read the background articles that I haven’t. Take the example of a dispassionate, detached Rusty Walker (comment#33): April 11, 2012 at 5:23 pm
“Frankly, I have always enjoyed reading all of you – LUBP, Friday Times (I have a close friend, a brave journalist, whom I think still works there), and Pak Tea House Blog – So, is this battle is unnecessary? even though I have had it explained to me and am reading the twitter and blog insults. What a shame, what appears to be a temper-fueled battle of slurs, when the philosophy is so close.
There are too few progressive Pakistanis here in Pakistan to alienate each other at this point. My advice is to listen a little more carefully to each other and if there are issues, call each other up! Talk on the cell! Okay, naive?”
If both Rusty and Abdul Nishapuri, knowing the specific backgrounder to the issue of Shia genocide, are bipartisan and concordant in their tone there’s nothing to be unduly worked up about the stance I have taken and that I reproduce here:
shoaib mir (comment #31) says: April 11, 2012 at 5:11 pm
“I believe all of us who uphold secular, democratic, human values and are fighting for the cause of a pluralistic socio-political order, are by definition liberals. Working against these ideals there’s an historically antithetical mindset represented among others by moulvi’s\clerics irrespective of the religion or sect they belong to. In this classical struggle of orthodoxy vs reform, conservatism vs rationalism, the least the liberals of our time could do is to close their ranks and not waste their energies and time in opening unnecessary fronts against each other. The best way to do so may be to avoid any ad hominem attacks and restrict the discourse to analysis on the strength of facts and reason.
That said, it’s really reassuring that LUBP has in the spirit of a healthy debate cross-posted Raza Rumi’s very well argued assertions that one has already gone through on his Pak Tea House blog. Hopefully, a response would be forthcoming.”
Well said, Shoaib!!!
@Mir Sahib,
“Raza Rumi’s very well argued assertions”
I totally disagree with your assessment Mir Sahib. Raza is implying that LUBP is soft on Shia clerics which is contradicted by LUBP’s bold critique of Shia ulema council, MWM. Raza makes personal digs at Abdul Nishapuri of this website. What does Abdul do but cross post this vile unsubstantiated article with a graceful note.
Also, LUBP did not just weave tweets to tell a tale (a contradiction if there ever was one as tweets are public statements, not fictions). Here is the article that was the last article written on the intellectual dishonesty of the “liberals” on Shia genocide. Kindly read it:
“For example, when we evaluated articles in The Friday Times and Jinnah Institute (including those written by Raza Rumi) for misrepresenting Shia genocide as “sectarian violence” and “ethnic violence” thereby wilfully obfuscating and diluting the suffering of Shias in Pakistan, our “liberal” friends could have proven us otherwise. Unfortunately they decided to resort to ad hominem attacks, abuses and harassment instead of responding to the critical questions and observations.”
http://criticalppp.com/archives/75681
Then Raza Rumi tries to prove that there was a token presence of 2 Shia clerics, along with one Hindu and one Sikh representative in the formative DPC closed door meeting. What is the point of that. Should millions of Pakistani Shias suffer because 2 of them attended a meeting and then distanced themselves to the extant that they are not part of the DPC anymore.
It seems that Raza doesn’t understand or appreciate the pain of Shias. When ISI-supported ASWJ-SSP militants are killing Shias, they do not care if the Shia is secular, Hazara, Baltit, Punjabi, Seriaki, theocratic, moderate et cetra – you get my drift.
They are simply killing as many Shias as they can. When they separated them from the rest and lined them up against a bus in Kohistan, they did not ask any of them what they thought of the DPC. The DPC was formed 3 months ago. The first mass Shia massacre in Pakistan took place in 1963 nearly 50 years and since Zia ul Haq, it has increased exponentially.
Shias are the ones being killed and LUBP is raising a voice. We don’t care if Abdul bhai is an “internet virus” as Raza refers to him on twitter. We would rather stand with someone who appreciates our pain as opposed to Raza Rumi who is more concerned about protecting his image. Also, it is the height of insensitivity that when Shias are being killed on a mass scale, people like Raza Rumi are more obsessed in confusing the reader and talking about the token participation of Shia clerics in a meeting of a group of which they are not even a part of any longer!
The ANP elected MNA’s signed the Nizam-e-Adl. Does Raza bother to clarify that they did so at gun point! ANP, PPP and PMAP supporters in KP have been killed at mass scales in Taliban suicide attacks, both before and after this. So are they to be blamed now! If not, then what is the point of taking the debate off into a meaningless tangent.
FYI, Ali Salman’s article was first cross posted on LUBP. Sajid Naqvi was also part of the MMA. Once again, should Shias be held collectively responsible for the acts of a few. If not, there is no reason to confuse and misdirect the reader by bringing in misleading arguements. I beg to differ with you. Raza Rumi’s article was a collection of personal attacks, bitterness after having been proven wrong and misleading tangents.
As for etiquite and false accusations, Raza should look at his blog before his vitriol against LUBP.
“Raza bhai,Excellent article. I warned you about crooks. Sherry Ali X being one. Also I must warn you against Ali Arqam. Similar crook.”
http://pakteahouse.net/2012/04/11/the-hate-campaign-by-fake-bloggers-whose-agenda-they-are-promoting/comment-page-1/#comment-86745
Sherry X runs his own blog and has made some excellent comments on this thread. I endorse his comment on this thread when he deconstructs the Raza’s article superbly:
“I have only one thing to say. Very badly written article. If the article was intended to be a criticism , it fails in its purpose , because the writer himself has accepted inaccuracy of his information on both counts. When he states “language error” and “message was lost”,its his failure as a writer , not any one else. He as a socio political activist must be aware of the importance of communication, especially when he is commenting on an issue concerning a community under persecution. Also regarding by his own admission in this very article that the impression he had about Shia clerical presence in DPC was not firmly rooted in rigor of evidence and clarity which one expects from a activist of his stature, i really dont see what substance is left than to criticize? If one has been careless in his work about a community which is burrying loved ones every single day and is faced with a criminal silence by mainstream media , a touch of emotional irratrionality is rather a very “human” behaviour.
If this piece was instead intended to be a protest against “style” of criticism , than it fails even more fundamentally, because unfortunately Mr Rumi adopts the same “bullying” tactics here, generalizing, calling names, passing judgements. Whats moral and ethical about it? Infact the very article given in his piece by a very talented Ali Salman has been published on LUBP. with the exact condemnation of these clerics? So it doesnt make any case for pro theocratic blog if trophy article you are quoting has actually been published and appriciated on the very blog you want us to believe is proxy of theocratic Iranian state. This is a very unfortunate lack of academic rigour. I am actually disappointed! Instead of writing this kind of “thing” if Mr Rumi would have written on plight of Pakistani Shia community who has been abondonmed by state, media, judiciary as well as large section of Liberal activists, it would have been a better defence against theocratic trends within the community. A strong liberal effort to reach out to the community is far better option to check the clerical influence, which is increasing for only one reason that their is no liberal support instead of abstract lectures on secularism! One would actually like to ask that during Nazi Holocaust would One be criticizing Hitler or Rabi of Berlin? Criticizing Catholic cardinal of Berlin would make sense but the Rabi, should he be a priority? Perhaps its a very strange reading of liberalism and secularism in context of state sponsered violence against a persecuted community! In any case , i dont think it needs a response, its self contradicting and lacks seriousness”
http://criticalppp.com/archives/75833/comment-page-1#comment-237538
@Arqam,
I read the exchange between Sajjad and you. If you are not here to defend “flaws” in Raza Rumi post, then what are you here for. You say this is Shia genocide. LUBP says it is Shia Genocide. Raza says it is “sectarian violence”. So atleast say that Raza is wrong on this.
Also, you say that your name is a pen name and you also provide a justification for pen names. but then you attack Abdul Nishapure because you think this is a pen name.
Do you even have a consistent standard or are you just bitter. My advice if it is the latter. Give it a rest. For the record, I don’t think you are a crook and that was a nasty remark on PTH. However, your arguements are all over the place.
Also, I appreciate that you adviced Raza Rumi on Yasser’s attack on DT columnist, Dr. Taqi. On that same standard, can you also advice Raza why continues to support a Mr. Saleem Javed’s disturbing analysis that the Shia massacres in Quetta are ethnic based and NOT sect based. This in the face of evidence that those who are proudly taking ownership of these killings, SSP-ASWJ; are doing the killings because of their intolerance of the Shia muslim faith and NOT ethnicity. Also, as pointed out in LUBP (as opposed to PTH which has barely written anything on the ongoing Shia genocide), non-Hazara Shias have also been killed in large numbers in Quetta.
Don’t you understand that this “ethnic violence” false angle is being set in motion to pitch the Hazaras against the Pashtuns and Baloch in Quetta while simultaneously deflecting attention away from the Taliban-Al Qaeda affiliate, ASWJ-SSP.
In 2003, the massacers of Shia Hazaras in Quetta was preceeded by anti-Shia pamphlets http://tribune.com.pk/story/257061/how-many-more-massacres/ and in 2004, another mass murder of Shia Hazaras, bullets used to killed them were inscribed with anti-Shia slogans. And yet Raza Rumi continues to take offense when LUBP exposes these lies.
LUBP/Abdul Nishpuri, please do not let these so-called liberals stop your blog from being blunt with the truth. And thanks for educating the world with the well researched articles on LUBP.
Sibte Hassan, you are wasting your time. It seems to me that “liberals” are not interested in hearing anything that contradicts their belief! Do Pakistani “liberals” even know what “liberal” means. Rumi’s article is full of nonsensical arguements that have been countered several times during this thread but those who don’t want to see it will not see it. Forget about it.
Mr Jafri
I don’t care, what people like YLH or his fans or Abdul abd its devotees call me.
First of all, I posted my comments here and on PTH on the same time with my views on this whole issue. I posted here to say don’t make issue of Shia killings for attcking each other or settling personal scores, and don’t alienate the issue from the various facades of state ideology which has stabbed Sindhis, Balochs, Pashtuns, Sirakis, Ahmedis, Christians, Hindus and Shias time to time with different labels.
I have criticised Abdul/Laibaah and another friend for tactics and using many pen names for mutually conflicting and contradicting positions not for plain use of pen names.
When he is founder of a tremendous forum like LUBP at the same time he runs a parallel offshoot with the tagline “De-realisation of LUBP” its simply nonsensical and ridiculous, but for his rapidly changing colors like a Chameleon, people conveniently forgot this all.
Using pen names, writing de-constructing posts, writing on Shia Genocide, Baloch Genocide, sacrificing Pashtuns to reinforce a false narrative on Afghanistan, discriminating Sindhis in their own lands perhaps on all the issues, I was and I am with LUBP whether am part of it or not, it doesn’t matter.
As for as issues of Hazaras is concerned, they are targeted for being Shias by the SSP/LeJ but one must not completely negate the factor of ethnicity in the light of Afghanistan narrative.
When Taliban rule was ended as aftermath of 9/11, I have witnessed how people from other ethnicity were dealt in Deobandi madressas and our locality, before that there were thousands of Uzbek/Tajik students in Madressas, also hundreds of Pesh Imams in deobandi mosques all over, especially in Swat, but after the end of Taliban rule, the northern alliance dominance in political set up, these students and Imams faced forced strucking off the madressas and expulsion. From the mosques.
Hazaras faced worst genocide in Taliban rule in Afghanistan by the Al-Qaeda inspired mullas and activists from Pakistani outfits inflicted havoc over them.
If someone has a perspective with his own set of arguments, we have to contradict it with counter arguments not by calling him a moron, ISI proxy etc.
Using religious based identities and playing Ethnic card where it suit them are favourite tactics of state institutions responsible for what they have sowed and reaping for the last decade.
Neither one can be preferred nor the other can be patted on the back without questioning the flaws.
@ Sibte Hassan Jafri:
Good to have this response (comment 81); I cannot bring myself to disagree with most of what you have argued as it analyzes the missing links in the Shia genocide-specific discourse on LUBP vs Raza Rumi’s viewpoint on this. The links that I have already mentioned I didn’t have the opportunity to go through. That being the context of the comment “very well argued assertions” was in no way a blank check to the slurs and attacks on LUBP editors in the same article. That was never my intention and perhaps an oversight on my part in that it may have been pointed out in so many words in the first place.
Just look at it with another angle, State argues that the acts of terrorism in Pakhtunkhwa mostly and the other parts are an act of resentment by the Pashtuns after their fellow brethren in Afghanistan have been ousted from powers and have inappropriate representation in Afghan political settlement.
In the same way killing of Hazaras was portrayed as “an act of Pashtun reprisal by none other than the revered Khaled Ahmed in his TFT Op-ed.
While who is killing the Hazaras for their Sect/Ethnicity(no matter who pulls the trigger) should not forget that it again reinforce what narrative the state of Pakistan has on Afghanistan. The same way, Shias of Kurram are killed to facilitate Pakistan trusted allies in Afghanistan.
That is why both the narratives on Hazara genocide need this anecdotes to be mentioned.
Ali Arqam,
When I searched “derealization of lubp” this link came up:
http://criticalppp.com/archives/28413
Your comment is at the top and I am assuming then you were with LUBP.
Are you now suggesting that Raza Rumi, Raza Raja and Yasser Latif are Abdul Nishpuri pen names who are writing stuff that is “contradictary” to LUBP! You are either being very paranoid or are thoroughly confused.
Now you have me totally confused too regarding your comments. Please tell me specifically if Abdul has made a CONTRADICTARY position on Shia genocide. The evidence so far is that once Raza Rumi and his friend’s distortions were called out on LUBP and twitter, he has become more careful and is carefully trying to rebuild his image – which is pathetic as one should not be a hypocrite.
I repeat, I don’t care what Nishapuri does in his spare time. He has made LUBP and we are discussing LUBP so please stick to the topic.
Also, it is Raza Rumi who first of all, distorted the very serious issue of Shia genocide in Pakistan (8 more Shias killed in Quetta today) and when his lie written in Friday Times is exposed, he comes and attacks LUBP. Contrary to the evidence pointed out several times on this thread, he goes on to depict LUBP and Abdul Nishapuri as being soft on Shia mullahs and insensitive to Fakhra.
So who is playing politics on this issue?
Certainly not LUBP who are one of the very few who are actually highlighting this issue and NOT Raza Rumi whose one recent article on this issue is a gross distortion.
Yet, you keep ducking the issue and are coming across as someone who is simply trying to take revenge against LUBP for expelling you from their team. You have said many unsubstantiated things against Abdul on this thread but NOT once have you gone against Raza Rumi for his lies and distortions.
Let me tell you something. Today, world wide, Shia muslims are looking to sites like LUBP for what is happening to Shias in Pakistan. Part of the problem with Shia Genocide is also they way the media has distorted this issue and people like Raza Rumi have played a very negative role and are part of this dishonest media. And you come across as someone who wants to use LUBP forum to curse its founder but provide a free pass to Raza.
Please don’t take my criticism the wrong way but I think you need to reflect that your comments so far (countered on this forum) are full of contradictions and paranoia. There can be no equivalence between those whose prejudice is so intense that they distort the issue as opposed to those who may or may not be using pen names to write about this issue and give room to others to do the same. None Whatsoever.
I am disappointed to see some of the comments on this post. I have friends and family who are Shia and they are living under daily threats. However, the bashing on this forum is reserved for this very site, LUBP, that has taken up the gauntlet, not just on this issue, but on other burning issues. They have my support any day over chattering elites like Raza Rumi types.
@Sibte, thanks for posting the link. I recommend anyone who wants to see “contradictary positions” to go to the link for “derealization of LUBP” that is posted in comment by Sibte. There PTH editors like Yasser and Raza Habib are bashing Taseer and Zardari to defend Imran Khan! And that too on the issue of liberalism. LOL.
@Arqam, do you have any proof that Raza Raja/Yasser Latif/Raza Rumi are all Abdul? He must have a lot of time to do the elaborate makeup because I have seen Hamdani and Rumi on tv so your allegation does not make any sense. If that is what you are really saying because I have failed to understand most of what you are saying now. Also attacking the founder of LUBP who has set the bold tone is an excellent way to be a part of LUBP. I would laugh if I was not sad to see this conduct at the same time.
Mr Jafri
Since you are a novice or at least pretending to be so, I joined this discussion for 2 reasons.
1. Giving my view of the issue of Shia Killings all over Pakistan. My first comments was for that. I didn’t take sides in RR vs LUBP.
2. In the post, my name was mentioned with reference to my differences and leaving LUBP, so I had to contradict that leaving LUBP was not an option my cards.
After that Abdul clarified and also accused me of propaganda etc. I asked abdul not use nonsensical words.
Then, with relatively unknown names I have been called a fraud etc.. I pointed out to that objectionable tactic.
Then I have interactions with Sajjad about using pen names, highlighting Shia genocide etc. You can read it.
Now read my above comments, why are you wanna keeping the debate in circles to bring it to the beginning point.
Abdul is my ex-colleague, I know him and he knows me very well. You mind your own business man! You can’t find answers of my assertions on Google. You were asking my views on Hazara issues so I have posted, If you have any disagreement with that you can counter it.
Mr Bashir
You better improve your comprehension skills first.
@Arqam, I am not “pretending” just asking you to explain your position which you have not done so far.
“I didn’t take sides in RR vs LUBP.” It is pretty obvious whose side you are on. You have critisized LUBP and its founder which is fine but then don’t pretend to be impartial.
What is even more strange considering the discourse you mantain on Shia Genocide (and I read your article “Paint it Black”) which is very much the same as LUBP but yet you cannot bring yourself to call a spade a spade and say that Raza Rumi has made a fool of himself by first distoring this issue and then making personal attacks on people here.
As for name calling, I provided the link from the website of Raza Rumi, Pak Tea House, where the co-editor, Yasser Latif Hamdani (YLH) is calling Sheharyar Ali and you a “crook”. Google him and LUBP and he has called Abdul and you far worst ghallis which I don’t want to say here.
“You mind your own business”. Yes, excellent way to run away from a debate where you have clearly contradicted yourself, time and time again. These LUBP people might use some pen names but atleast they are civil which is more than I can say of you.
Also you have made this accusation of “derealization of LUBP”.
For derealization, refer to meaning here http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Derealization. You accuse Abdul of changing his opinion, yet have provided no proof.
I provided you a link where YLH and another PTH editor are abusing PPP and especially Taseer. You avoided my arguements to get back to bashing LUBP and asking me to “mind my own business” – again something that makes no sense given that I have simply questioned you on your public statements on this web site.
Mr Jaferi
Lolz, so asking you to mind your own business’ is un civil, Ok Sorry for that First.
I wanted to avoid repeating same things again and again, but my criticism of Abdul was/is not for his stance on Shia genocide, but I have disagreed to his tactics, may be I am wrong and he had found these tactics working. The rest of debate on this particular subject is unnecessary.
As for as RR, YLH, RHR are concerned, what has been said and written in the mutual rift, if LUBP team members can have cordial relations with YLH and group photos with ‘complementary captions below’ posted on Facebook, then why not I may have relations with Raza.
I wrote in my very first comments that I disagree Raza on his views on Balochistan as well as the issue of Shia genocide, also the notions of Jinnah Pakistan etc. but I have no doubt over his progressive, pro-PPP credentials, so my disagreements it don’t allow me to label him with objectionable titles.
We live and exist in the same society where we have known for our views on certain issues. We haven’t a parallel universe of activism and our private lives moving side by side.
Also, our views of a particular person shouldn’t be overwhelmed with our personal likes and dislikes.
Let’s have another look at what I wanna say.
We on the pages of LUBP and everywhere have criticised Jinnah Institute’s report on Afghanistan, also were of the view that Sherry R has sided with the establishment or she has echoed their wish-list in the infamous report. Also we have criticised her decision of leaving the cabinet on the pressures of her friends from civil society also appearing in Geo TV shows while party has stopped his representatives from doing so.
But our very dear friend Shaheryar Ali wrote a peace in her defence, and calling her a symbol of BB’s progressive legacy. Also he thought JI report has debunked the elitist view on Afghanistan, I dunno how?
So what, we will be quick in labelling him, a plain NO.
@Arqam, you claim to use a pen name and then talk against separation of personal life vs activism. What a joke. Personally, I don’t think there is anything wrong with such a separation. If one is taking vague, pro-establishment (on burning Shia issue) stance like Raza Rumi of PTH/ET/TFT and now Jinnah Institute, then one can afford to be out in the open. If one is taking a strong stance on Shia, Baloch, PPP like LUBP does, then I can understand why some of them may want to use pen names.
Also, I don’t see any LUBP members coming out on their own forum to abuse Abdul or anyone who disagrees with Raza Rumi’s highly objectionable stance. “if LUBP team members can have cordial relations with YLH and group photos with ‘complementary captions below’ posted on Facebook, then why not I may have relations with Raza.”
You on the other hand, sound very bitter. By all means have a social relationship with Raza Rumi but don’t make that a basis of being unable to take a stand and calling him out when he attacked LUBP with arguements that have no basis. What other LUBP members do is not the issue here. Atleast their website does what Raza Rumi has distorted in TFT and social media forums.
“Also our views of a particular person shouldn’t be overwhelmed with our personal likes and dislikes”
Yes, you should not be overwhelmed with your dislike of Abdul. I agree there.
A straight question for you:
Is this article by Raza Rumi against LUBP in general and his nasty tone to Abdul justified?
Take some time and think about it and you will see what I mean when I say that your comments are all over the place. Stick to the topic and stick to one set of standards for everyone.
LUBP weaved a post around Raza’s tweets on Shia Ulemas participation in DPC inaugural session, LUBP has termed it via their source close to the paticular ulemas and termed this false allegations. Now later it was proved with document proofs that they have participated in the first session, as well as Ali Salman Alvi produced their Fatwa in support of Sufi Muhammad,
So apart from RR views on Shia Genocide and how he narrates it, his tweets were not based on false allegations, but LUBP still has the post as well as calling him an ISI proxy in the comments sections, then how do youi expect him not to give a response, what sort of language he has used, one can’t justify it but it was his own choice.
I found the first post unnecessary, while I agree to the second one questioning the liberal discourse on Shia Genocide
One can agree or disagree with Shaheryar on Sherry Rehman. But we are talking about Raza Rumi’s problematic rant against LUBP where I completely agree with Sheheryar Ali. Also, Shaharyar has relied on arguements and with him, it does not come across as personal.
He does not come across as gunning for Abdul and attributing other ID’s on him like calling him YLH/Raza Habib/Laibah/Raza Rumi. Shaharyar is relying on arguements, not paranoia.
In the evidence provided by Raza Rumi, whom you are confusing with Ali Salman Alvi (for what reason, I don’t know why because his post was published on LUBP), Shias were a part of DPC. Its in the fine print where LUBP posts said that the two Shias in question were not part of DPC. It was not just two Shias but one Hindu and one Sikh that were also invited. Does that mean Sikhs and Hindus are part of DPC. See the online clip of just two days ago where Hamid Gul is still trying to lure Shias into DPC.
IMO, your friend Raza Rumi is being dishonest. Being invited and then not taking any further part when knowing that the other participants are Sipah Sahaba is substantatively different from being part of DPC. It is most insensitive of you to keep throwing this in the face of the victims here.
And please have the decency to mantain the same standards. When Abdul was tweeting about Fakhra, it was in the context of giving disproportionate time to one tragedy while less to others. So your friend Raza also weaved his post from a text by Abdul. I may not agree with Abdul on this but it does not even come close to Raza’s other highly insensitive, bitterly sarcastic tweet:
“@alidayan When was the last time you condemned Shia Genocide in Pakistan. huh? You are supposed to condemn 24/7 every atrocity. #L-logic” http://criticalppp.com/archives/75388/3-23
The irony is that Raza Rumi, in his own dishonest, vague style is talking about this on twitter currently when everyone else is also. However, he is being critical of the government (which he should) but his criticism of judiciary, media is very muted if any. Also he is asking Govt. to summon ISI when the whole world knows now that ISI is the primary backer of not just Shia killers but the killers of Sunnis, Baloch, Pashtuns, Ahmadis etc. And that the government cannot summon ISI – it is the ISI that erodes govt. via its judiciary.
Give me a break about Raza Rumi ok. The evidence is clearly to the contrary. And get over your hatred of Abdul and his allegly scores of pen names and move on.
I just can’t understand where I called Abdul as RHR/YLH etc. also it is very clear and my friends at LUBP lnow that LUBP still is the most dearer platform to me, in fact very significant, Junaid and Sherry can confirm this.
Raza calling the whole blog as ‘Fake Bloggers’ is sounds a joke, as he himself introduced LUBP editors in a social media summit, so how it could be fake. As per statistics, following, frequency of new post, number of people contributing to it and rankings, PTH ranking is 1/4th of LUBP. In fact LUBP stands unmatched in these respects.
These can’t be denied. The whole twitter criticism is a familiar trend in social media. But sometime post based on twitter interactions are simply ridiculous, if one has to say.
Haha, Mr Jafri, you are being cynical, They participated in the first DPC meeting, its happened, they supported Sufi Muhammad, its proved.
Whatever you say, whether they represent Shias or not is a separate matter, Even Hamid Gul said in the video you have referred to that these ulemas were at the first meeting. While I salute the man and pray for him, who criticised Gul on his face and said, “Ham na Pakistani Taliban ko mantey hain na Afghan Taliban ko”
Why are you again and again bringing Namoos-e-Abdul back in the comments
Its simply ridiculous to drag every issue to be stretched or amputated on a procrustes bed set by Abdul. The way he treated Fakhra issue or Hussain Haqqani saga(Namoos-e-haqqani network etc) and the Oscar to Saving Face.
I am sorry but one day, he will be cursing Misbahul Haq or Afridi for the same reasons after winning at cricket grounds.
“Its simply ridiculous to drag every issue to be stretched or amputated on a procrustes bed set by Abdul”
Arqam, go to your first comment and then others. You are the one obsessed with Abdul, not me. LOL! If he is the founder of this blog and does all the work and writes under all the pen names that you give him credit for then as per your own logic, he is primarily responsible for the sucess of LUBP.
Also Raza Rumi used the word stage not meeting in his tweet. I know it is easier to ignore my point rather than answering to it, but there is a very clear difference.
If 2-3 Shia clerics, along with Hindu, Sikh etc are token elements of a group that has members intent on their genocide, what is the point of referring to them; especially when they are no longer a part of the public meeting of DPC.
Only someone with a warped sense of justice would raise this issue when scores of Shias are being murdered daily. If Sajid Naqvi agreed to Sufi Mohammad, what difference does it make? Is it less objectionable to kill Shias if some of them share theocratic ideals. If not, why keep bringing in elements of tokenism to the dialogue. It is disgusting that people cannot see this. I think Shaheryar Ali says it best and you should try and see what he is saying:
“One would actually like to ask that during Nazi Holocaust would One be criticizing Hitler or Rabi of Berlin? Criticizing Catholic cardinal of Berlin would make sense but the Rabi, should he be a priority? Perhaps its a very strange reading of liberalism and secularism in context of state sponsered violence against a persecuted community! In any case , i dont think it needs a response, its self contradicting and lacks seriousness”
As for his (RR) pretense of being on the secular-moral highground, it was LUBP and some honest commentators like Farhat Taj, Dr. Taqi (who is vilified by PTH editor YLH as per your own comment), Kamran Shafi, Ayesha Siddiqa who exposed the pro-Taliban Jinnah Institute report. And your friend Raza Rumi is part of Jinnah Institute. Show me one article where he has written against the problematic views of Najam Sethi (Afghan Taliban are reformed) and Ejaz Haider (Shias are Iranian fifth columnists). I can point to scores of such articles in LUBP. So much for your selective standards.
As for Oscars, Haqqani etc. those are issues where different people have different points of view. I think Haqqani was targetted by ISI and I have read both points of view on LUBP. Same with Oscar for Ms. Chinoy. These issues are not the topic of conversation. Get over your Namoos-e-Raza Rumi and your obsession with your ex-editor Abdul and just give me a straight answer to whether Raza Rumi is correct in his unsubstantiated, abusive, decontextualized attack on LUBP and Abdul.
I have noted that i have been discussed in many comments here on LUBP and PTH. Some comments are just slanders! My policy from the start has been not to respond to personal slanders and attacks!
I only respond to an ideological criticism and engage in ploemics only when its purpose is to clarify an ideological position. This has been the practice of the progressive tradition.
The slanders directed at me at PTH , only strengthen my comments that my old friend Raza Rumi has no moral ground to cry foul here because he has encouraged these sillly practices at his blog. I pointed that out , its a matter of public record. My position on this kind of criticism, personalize attacks on writers because of their ideological affiliation has actually been vindicated!
There is a clarification which i want to make! Ali Arqam has commented about two points regarding my work. I think Ali has not read both things carefully. Its just a clarification. My article on Sherry Rehman, which is available on my blog is not in her defence. Its rather an appeal to her to leave Pakistan urgently because her life is in grave danger. It was written in context of her strong and bold stand on Blasphemy laws and after the martyrdom of Salman Taseer,In this context she certainly was continuing the progressive legacy of PPP.
Regarding the Jinnah Institute report, you have misread my views, I have never said that it some how debunk the elitist views. My opinion on the whole debate on JI report has been that much of the criticism is surprising to me, because JI report by its own admission is “elite view”. So i dont see the need “first to consider it a progressive or liberal view” and than to “condem the “liberal and progressive views”. Its again lack of rigour. By its very methology and admission JI report gave us the opinion of forign policy elites, in otherwords the ppl who influence n control the forign policy. So may be it was a shok for those in whose minds elite is some good word. My opinion was that Sherry Rehman has clearly stated her target population from which she was generating an opinion. For us we didnt need to read JI report to know what is the thinking of elites of Pakistani forign policy developers. we knew that from very begining. but now due to this report we have a formal study which be quoted to demostrate the thinking of ppl who make our forign policy. i never did endorse this thinking and any one who has ever read me in these matters that i always have been critical of Pakistan FP
On another note i believe in academic freedom, a researcher choice to work in an area he or she wants to, we as peers and readers have right to criticize all public works, but i dont think , work can be generalized on a person in general.
I appriciate sherry rehman on many things, i criticize her on many other. I dont believe she is a devil incarnate nor do i believe she is a godess. these are silly extremes which only ppl who are duffers or naive categorize ppl to.
thats is what criticism is about to look at the text and ideology , its not slandering, and its not judgement.
Thanks Sherry for this very detailed response, actually we haven’t discussed that report in detail so was not clear on what did you mean by it has debunked the elitist view. You made it very comprehensible as if it was clearly saying, its Elite perspective, then what we were expecting from it, a progressive or liberal document, haha
For other issue regarding Sherry R being one representing PPP progressive side for the whole debate of Blasphemy laws, you are entitled to your own opinion, I have my disagreements aside.
I must say that this was bound to happen and the onus lies solely on LUBP.
When direct attacks on many progressive writers were being written I strongly advised against it. Many a progressive writers have come under fire from LUBP which should not have happened as long as they were fighting for a common cause on some level.
Shia genocide is a reality but like the President himself the freedom of progressive writers’ is constrained by ground realities.
Its never too late. Perhaps LUBP can discontinue it direct criticism of progressive writers who are our allies and not our enemies in the causes we fight for.
I appreciate Saad Mansoor for this advice
I admit it! I am Abdul Nishapuri. Ha ha- fooled all of you all these years.
Ofcourse Ali , you are entitled to hold your opinion. Point is objectivity. On Blasphemy if you are examining PPP response you have to quantify and analyse. On side we had Sherry Rehman , who tabled a bill and spoke with a clarity and courage that is extremely rare in Pakistan and on the other we had Rehman Malik and Baber Awan who either pleaded to “shoot blasphemers” personly or provided pleadges that Balsphemy laws would be changed over his dead body (really wont be a bad bargin) if you ask me! and that when still blood of Governor Taseer had not cesed flowing! i think is crystal clear who was following the progressive tradition and who was following Maududi!
Saad Mansoor
A distinction had to made , criticism of progressive intellectuals is what is required!
What is not required is personal attacks, names calling and labelling.
that must stop on every blog!
LUBP has very good writers and i think its in our own interest if we set an example and bring more sophitication. But i would not suggest that criticism be stopped , criticism of PPP leadership , progressive writers against the tenants of progressive ideology and PPP foundation myths and documentaion is extremely needed actually
And i never said “it debunked elite view”
Many people , including an academic who irespect a lot criticized the report , with all the rhetoric of pseudo liberal, liberal this and that. What was very unfortunate that they didnt even pay attention to the title of the report “Pakistan, the United States and End game in Afghanistan: Perceptions of Pakistans Foreign Policy Elites”
The report was giving the elite perspective, which by no stretch of imagination were or are either Liberal or progressive!
It was not a progressive or liberal piece of writing, it was elitist perspective for the governments
Most of the criticism calling it pesudo liberal , actually showed , ignorance of reviewer, that was shocking atleast in case of one or two observers from who i expect some thing meaningful.
“I don’t care, what people like YLH or his fans or Abdul and its devotees call me”
where i said YLH is Abdul,I don’t even wanna discuss YLH etc. As it will lead to another round of abuses
@Sherry
I will suggest this post.
Blasphemy laws: The shape of things to come – by Omar Ali
http://criticalppp.com/archives/35458
Taking Sides : The Liberals and the Right
The decision of a lower court to award the death penalty to a poor Christian woman accused of blasphemy has ignited a wide debate over Pakistan’s blasphemy laws. Liberals have asked that the Zia-era blasphemy law should be repealed or amended because it has become an instrument of oppression and injustice in the hands of mobs and gangsters (over 4000 prosecutions in 25 years with several gruesome extra-judicial executions). The religious right has mobilized its supporters to oppose any such amendment and regards these attempts as a conspiracy against Islam. Ruling party MNA Sherry Rahman has introduced a “private member bill” to amend the law and the governor of Punjab has intervened (somewhat clumsily) in the judicial process and indicated that a Presidential pardon is on the cards.
Potential Allies
The international media is arrayed against the law alongside Pakistan’s liberals and progressives, while the “deep state”, the Islamist front organizations and their mentors in the Gulf and Saudi Arabia are no doubt aligned on the other side. What will be the likely outcome of this struggle?
Some Predictions
It is always hazardous to make predictions, but let us make some anyway and try to state why these are the likely outcomes:
1. The law will not be repealed. Some minor amendments may be made (and even these will excite significant Islamist resistance) but their effectiveness will be limited. Blasphemy accusations will continue, as will the spineless convictions issuing from the lower courts. In fact, new blasphemy accusations will almost certainly be made with the express intention of testing any new amendment or procedural change (thus, ironically, any amendment is likely to lead to at least one more innocent Christian or Ahmedi victim as Islamists hunt around for a test case).
2. Aasia bibi may get a reprieve from the high court but there is a good chance that she will remain in legal limbo and will eventually be smuggled out of the country after a presidential pardon (president Zardari being a rare president who actually has the courage to publicly pardon a blasphemy accused if he gets it into his head to do so) or, unfortunately, she may be killed by a free-lance executioner of the law. It is also very likely that her immediate family will have to leave the country with her. The local Christian community will, in any case, have to show their humble submission in order to be allowed to get on with their lives. Too much public support for Aasia bibi from her neighbors and friends has the potential to incite another tragedy (though it is likely that the local Christian community is conscious of this and will leave public pressure to better placed representatives like Minister Shahbaz Bhatti).
3. In the short term, blasphemy will continue to be a potent weapon in the hands of the deep state, the Islamists and local gangsters. In the longer term, violent reorientation of the deep state in Pakistan may open the gates for a more liberal social order, but there is also the possibility that the deep state will soon re-establish its dominance, causing a return to the jihadi status-quo ante. But if that does happen, it will not mean the end of hopes for a more liberal social order. Rather, it will mean that change will be delayed and may have to pass through future stages of collapse and anarchy. In the truly long run, change is inevitable, but the inevitable may happen by catastrophe rather than gradual (and more desirable) routes.
The Law will not be repealed
These predictions may appear pessimistic and discouraging, but I would submit that they are not meant to be discouraging; they are meant to be realistic. The law will not be repealed because the law is not just an invention imposed by General Zia on an unwilling populace. Rather, this law is the crude and updated expression of a pre-existing social and religious order. Blasphemy and apostasy laws were meant to protect the orthodox Islamic theological consensus of the 12th century AD and they have done so with remarkable effectiveness. Unlike their Christian counterparts (and prosecutions for heresy and blasphemy were seen throughout the middle ages in Europe) these laws retain their societal sanction and have been enforced by free lancers and volunteers where the state has hesitated. Thus, in Lahore in 1929, a carpenters apprentice named Ghazi Ilm Deen Shaheed executed the Hindu publisher of a book Muslims considered blasphemous. And Ghazi Ilm Deen Shaheed was not a lone wolf. Such action was being openly demanded by Muslim leaders like Maulana Zafar Ali Khan and Ilm Deen’s best friend wanted to do the act and only stepped aside because they drew lots and Ilm Deen won thrice in a row. He was then defended in court by none other than Quaid E Azam Mohammed Ali Jinnah, who was asked to take up the case by our illustrious modernist, Allama Mohammed Iqbal. His funeral drew thousands and was attended with pride by Allama Iqbal, who supposedly said that “this carpenter has left us, educated people, far behind”. His grave is now a popular shrine and a movie has been made about his exploit , complete with a dance sequence featuring the blasphemer enjoying himself before he meets his fate .
Zia is not the only villain
When Salman Rushdie’s book was declared blasphemous and rallies demanding his head were held all over the Muslim world, General Zia was not the agent of those protests. Such executions have even been attempted in Europe, most recently by textile engineering student Aamir Cheema in Germany. And Aamir Cheema too has achieved sainthood after he took his own life in a German prison), with his grave having become a popular shrine. A minister in Musharraf’s enlightened cabinet wrote more than one op-ed commending such acts and fantasizing about the day Salman Rushdie’s skin will be torn from his body with sharp hooks.
In short, while it is indeed true that misuse of the law has become common after General Zia’s time (an intended consequence, as one aim of such laws is to harass and browbeat all potential opposition), the law has deeper roots and liberals who believe that it is possible to make a distinction between true blasphemy and misuse of the law, may find that this line is not easy to draw.
Promoting the Islamist Project of the deep state
The second, and perhaps more potent reason the law will not be repealed is because the law was consciously meant to promote the Islamist project that the deep state (or a powerful section of the deep state) continues to desire in Pakistan. The blasphemy law is a ready-made weapon against all secular opposition to the military-mullah alliance (though some sections of the military now seem to have abandoned that alliance, hence the qualification “section of the deep state”). Secular parties are suspected of being soft on India and are considered a danger to the Kashmir Jihad and other projects dear to the heart of the deep state. At the same time, Islamist parties provide ideological support and manpower for those beloved causes.
In this way, the officers of the deep state, even when they are not personally religious, recognize the need for an alliance with religious parties and against secular political forces (Musharraf was a good example). They have been forced into an uneasy (temporary?) compromise with secular parties by circumstances beyond their control (aka America) but with American withdrawal a real possibility, the deep state does not wish to alienate its mullah constituency too much. They will be needed again once the Yankees are gone. Hence, no repeal at this time.
The Change is bound to come
But in the long term, change is bound to come. Pakistan does not exist on an island apart from the world. And the world is moving on from blasphemy laws and apostasy laws into the domain of capitalist individualism, if not yet into the realm of democracy or socialism. It is this capitalism that pays the bills for the deep state and its patrons in China and Saudi Arabia.
This capitalism, as Marx pointed out, is a universal acid, “it batters down all Chinese walls..it forces the barbarians’ intensely obstinate hatred of foreigners to capitulate. It compels all nations, on pain of extinction, to adopt the bourgeois mode of production; it compels them to introduce what it calls civilization into their midst, i.e., to become bourgeois themselves. In one word, it creates a world after its own image”. Islamic hardliners may be useful to great world powers at particular times and places, but they will not be allowed to become an alternative power, nor do they have the intellectual resources to be able to do so.
Oppression through Blasphemy accusations not bound to Muslims
Of course, blasphemy accusations and their use to suppress speech are not limited to Muslim countries e.g. Sikhs have resorted to violence to protest blasphemy and Hindu mobs enforce the sanctity of Shivaji’s memory in Mumbai but Islamist violence has merged with secular political grievances to create a particularly potent combination and their conflict with the modern bourgeois world has an edge that other fanatics can only envy. But while this conflict may see many local ups and downs, in the long term the advantage lies with the modern world. The world is what it is and the hard-line Islamists simply cannot provide what the population of Muslim countries desperately wants; more “wealth” in this world, not just in the next.
Capitalism with a Muslim face is certainly possible, even likely; Capitalism with a human face, maybe. But hard-line Islamic supremacism of the type being protected by blasphemy and apostasy laws is not likely to dominate in any country that aspires to also become modern.
In the long run (decades, not centuries) it’s going to be forced to compromise, one way or the other (with one way being less painful than the other).
I have not been following the chain of events outlined in Mr. Rumi’s article which led to his scathing criticism and vicious attack against LUBP and it’s brave writers. I cannot comment on the events nor do I closely follow the tweets, blogs or articles of his or his friends. As a diasporic Muslim in the US, I follow events in Pakistan generally on a higher level so I am a tad clueless about these chain of events.
I am compelled, however, to say here that LUBP is perhaps the only blog I have come across which has exposed everyone from the state with it’s implicit role in the Shia GENOCIDE to the jihadi organizations to the apathetic public to the misinformed journalists and even the liberal bloggers/activists who continue to chalk it up to “Sectarian Violence”. Thank God the brave writers remain anonymous for I cannot imagine their fate if they were to reveal their identities.
Nobody else serves up the truth in such a blunt and direct fashion. Please keep it up. The Shias in Pakistan have no one else to speak on their behalf.
Ali, its a good article
Sherry, by one or another way, almost every issue has its roots in state ideology and its extensions. I remember your comments on Queering rights issue, as you said, it can’t be alienated from the collective struggle. Then how issues like Blasphemy and Shia Genocide can be alienated from that struggle.
@Ali Arqam, Abdul Nishapuri
All of you worked on a great cause and this bickering was unnecessary. Seems our egos are too big that even misled of the great cause undertaken. I understand the efforts done by Abdul but it was all a team work that took LUBP to these heights.
What I understand is that Arqam is an honest and committed person and so is Abdul. Guys stay focused and stay logical.
Guys you are contesting an evil menace. Stay untied in efforts to bring back Pakistan to its true ideals of secularism. Once you do that, then do whatever you wish .. but not now.
I was equally sad at YLH and LUBP controversy and now on this too.
Ali
Nothing can be alinated from the collective struggle. Thats actually the dilemma of classical liberalism. Its a dialectical issue , thats why people trained only in logic and analysis find it difficult to understand. i will try to elaborate here bcz it is a very important point
1 Revolutionary trend in the progressive movement is competing with what we call “reformists” and general liberals , for the leadership of movement.
2. The reformists and liberal generally accept the legitimacy of state , and usually have a operative space within the existing political and state structure , though may not be dominant or favourable
3.Because of their operative space within the system they concieve a change is possible within the system through certain political reforms and change of leadership
4.This form the core of liberal arguement which seek to change Law , give rights to oppressed minorities, secularism etc. These are their primary focus and endpoints.
5.They presume by change of law , emancipation will occur
6.The revolutionary trend sees this arguement as naive, it focuses on the state as cause of oppression which cannot end till a revolution fundamentally alters the state and its class structure. In Pakistani context this was the Left wing thinking , thats why our progressive discourse even in this time of end of ideology revolves around “establishment” , deep state etc
7. Progressive revolutionaries see the liberal endpoints as a consequence of the struggle.
8. Left wing socialists became dogmatic in this and asserted bcz human emancipation is not possible till socialist victory the liberal reforms are futile. It became a issue with the German Social democrates on question of “Jewish emancipation”. whether to support the granting of equal citizenship rights to Jews or not. People claimed “If human is not free , how can a Jew be free?.
9. It was Karl Marx who came up with the classical progressive position in response to this, in his book “On Jewish Question”. The text form the basis of progressive critique of liberalism and ultra left .
10. Marx asserted that the point of political emancipation cannot be defered to point of human emancipation. So if bourgoies are granting (their job in classical modernism) certain right, they should not be rejected.
11. So the position of revolutionary socialists became “To support reforms but to reject reformism”
12. Its the job of liberal parties n social democratic parties like PPP and ANP to do fundamental reforms, like change constitution to make it secular, give rights to Ahmedies and women etc, repeal hudood and blasphemy laws. Whenever these parties move forward with such a reform , its duty of progressives to support it. Also to agitate but also show to people how these actions are not provinding them the actual emancipation they dreamed of , classical example. Creation of Pakistan didnt emancipate the muslims of India. or the women protection bill didnt changed the fate of pakistani women. Nor repealing of blasphemy law will stop killing of minority but it will make life a bit easier of a section of these communities. So these changes whenever liberals try to make are critically supported. bcz its a small step forward.
what is never done is to adopt it as final ideology, thats fatal mistake.
Lenin said go to parliment , in opposition to left wing socialists who said parliment is bourgoies institution, he said go to parliment but dont become parlimenteriansts, that is to believe that you can bring change though a parliment in control of alien classes. But go to parliment to use it as a forum for working class propaganda, dont deny the form u are being given, but go in parlement to expose the parliment which defends only the rights of upper classes.
Liberals try to seggrgate the movement on small issues taking each as end , so that overall state structure remains preserved. The progressive revolutionary take all these issues together as a programme of popular demands but linking them to a struggle for final victory.
But it never means not to get small victories till one reaches the final one
Well I will say onething which i have said before also. If someone has different point of view or interpretation of events that does not mean he is a “pseudo liberal”.
Dedicating front page articles based on tweets is frankly immature.
Raza rumi has never endorsed Shia genocide, he just termed it sectarian violence. It is a different interpretation then perhaps LUBP’s but this difference does not imply that Raza Rumi supports Shia killings.
Lastly who has given LUBP or for that matter PTH any authority to decide who is liberal and who is not???
It seems anyone who disagrees with us becomes a psuedo liberal.
Lets move forward. As a human being I am also full of faults and so are all of you. But lets try not to stretch it beyond limits. As a co editor of PTH, I will support Raza Rumi because frankly I know him personally and he is NOT someone who supports bigotry. Just because he has a different interpretation does not mean that he is an establishment person and all of you are “true” liberals.
Both LUBP and PTH in the context of pakistan are liberal but have different intellectual thrusts.
Lets move forward
Regards
Raza
Thanks Raza for a very reasonable comment. i agree in principle to many things you said, but there is a clear double standards. Without passing moral judgement on my old friend Raza Rumi i would very respectfully assert that he has certainly tolerated this kind of criticism and style on his blog and failed to act as an editor to stop it, even when objections were formly raised and it was really shocking to see him complain
My best wishes are always with Raza Rumi but i think its a time to reflect back and judge one self on the standard one sets for others, not only for the past cases but also on this rebuttle which adopts the similar tactics and style that Raza Rumi intended to criticize
thats is ironic!
Sheryar
I have read your blog and I like your passion and sincerity. There are amny things i agree with what you say and yes there are a few where I disagree with what you say in your blog.
But I will never doubt your liberal credentials and using the same standard I will say that Raza Rumi is a liberal though his interpretation and way of looking at things is different.
For that matter my interpretation of the situation and realities in Pakistan are also different in some ways from both you and Raza Rumi.
But in crucial areas, we all agree…
That is an important thing to remember
Regards
Raza
RHR, as has been pointed out, the issue is not about your friend and collegue Rumi but some crucial errors of judgement on his part. In his attack on LUBP, Rumi sahib has conviniently overlooked LUBP’s criticism of the Shia Clerical alliance. He continues to insist that the token Shia presence within DPC is there – contrary to evidence that I am coming across from Shia sources (Someone should write about this).
Also, there are some clear double standards. Its ok for your blog and writers (many of them associated with major newspapers) to abuse someone (calling them crooks) or even worse but not for LUBP and its writers to critisize Raza Rumi for what they (and many of us too) feel is a gross misrepresentation of Shia Genocide by terming it with “vague, obfuscatory and misleading” tags such as “Sectarian/ethnic violence”.
The Shias all over Pakistan who are loosing their near and dear ones need sympathy. They don’t need their situation to be misrepresented with false conflations and tokenisms that might not even be true. You and yours like Raza Rumi have the right to stick by what I feel is a deeply flawed understanding of the issue. LUBP and the increasing number of people reading it have the right to state otherwise.
Also, I don’t understand these double standards on pen names. As has been pointed out, Mr. Rumi and many others on social media interact with even object-named pen names but mantain a separate standard for those writing on this website. As mentioned by Fatima in an earlier comment, such a practice might put many LUBP writers at serious risk to their lives.
At this point in time, it matters little to many people as to who is more liberal-progressive – Mr. Rumi or LUBP.
Bottom line- LUBP does not need to change anything.
It is unique in its fearless coverage, and does not have the “News clip,” mentality- it is in-depth coverage of serious topics that are relevant, and current, and bold in its claims where injustice occurs.
Reading an article in LUBP will never be a waste of time.
Raza , from my side the debate is not about any one’s liberal credentials. Raza Rumi is a liberal, and liberalism is not a monolithic tendency in Pakistani context. My point is Raza Rumi failed to check bigotry, labelling , name calling and personalizing intellectual differences on his blog even after a public objection , i really find it objectionable that he complains about it when his personality is involved.
2ndly my comments have been regarding his response, it was written in haste, lacked any substaance expressed the same style which RR accuses LUBP. So i wrote in my 1st comment that i was disappointed as it was just mud slinging , i was expecting some thing serious and meaningful from Raza Rumi which could lead to some solution about this very silly trend in blogosphere , and unfortunately PTH has a lot of contribution to it.
I have always respected Raza Rumi , but i have been trained to speak my mind and stick to principles and RR knows it too. He should have set an example, unfortunately he didnt and this response also unfortunately was not decent.
The spirit should be lets agree to disagree Raza, thanks for your comments
Shaheryar Ali is sadly one of the most dishonest people I have come across in the blogosphere. He left PTH voluntarily as did his faithful sidekick Ali Arqam after the two could not argue on facts. My posts and Shaheryar Ali’s posts are all there. The problem with Shaheryar Ali is that he is incapable of tolerating a point of view contrary to his own. He wanted to make PTH his own personal fiefdom. When Raza refused to give into his antics, he started claiming I was “anti-homosexual” because I put up pictures from a fashion show and some such thing.
No one carried out a witchhunt against him or Ali Arqam Durrani. All abuses against Raza Rumi are pointless.
It is my considered view that those who run LUBP are crooks of the highest order – nameless and identity-less as they are. Above Ali Arqam admits to running 3 different accounts. If I was to venture a guess Shaheryar Ali and Abdul Nishapuri and indeed others operate many more. This is a dishonest enterprise.
Salmaan Taseer who was a staunch Pakistani patriot would be spinning in his grave knowing that people like Shaheryar Ali try to misappropriate him.
I remember meeting NFP at the KLF 2012. He was sitting with Muhammad Hanif, Raza Rumi, Ayesha Siddiqa and Ali Aftab of Beyghairat Brigade at Carlton Hotel’s coffee lounge. They were talking about many things and were also joined by Declan Walsh.
Topic turned to PPP and LUBP. I specifically remember NFP saying that “some LUBP writers seem be right-wing/ISI infiltrators who have succeeded in turning LUBP into a crazy hate blog.”
I agree with him.
Again proves the point! crooks!
If you act like a crook, how does one call you something else?
Well said Surriah. In my view Ali Arqam and Shaheryar Ali are two such “bloggers”.
On twitter, TherealYLH and Raza Rumi are running a hate campaign against this website. Is this how “liberals” react to criticism of their dishonest work. This should be an eye-opener to those who think that Raza Rumi is the Ayatullah of Pakistani liberals, above reproach for his silly essay. Contrary to evidence, he portrays LUBP as a mullah blog.
It is also a well-known that Yasser Latif abuses others with the implicit understanding of Raza. What is really bizzare is to see ex-LUBP Ali Arqam publically slander and malign the founder/editor of LUBP in one breath and then pretend to be an LUBP benafactor in the next. It is sad to then see him being abused repeatedly by Yasser here and even more strange to see him do his best to avoid critisizing Raza’s pathetically written article here but continue to malign his former collegue. Instead of questioning Raza on this essay & asking him to stop PTH editors from their abuses that are also directed against himself (Ali Arqam), he continues to seek common ground with his abusers.
He is blasting Abdul for allegedly using pen names to write on dangerous topics but cannot once bring himself to say anything against Yasser. Reminds me of Azam Swati and Sarder Assef Ali hurling accusations at each other and then becoming part of the same party. Atleast Yasser (who champions secularism but was giddy for Taliban Khan after the Lahore rally and then changed his stance, again) can be called consistent on the one count of abusing and maligning those who disagree with him (like Dr.Taqi, Tarek Fatah, Shaheryar Ali, Ishtiaq Ahmed etc ), Ali Arqam can’t even bring himself to ask Raza to tell Yasser to stop cursing him; let alone LUBP for which he claims to have such feelings. This would be a funny spectacle were it not sad.
Ali Arqam, when you betrayed and maligned LUBP founder/editor by confusing him with various others, you should have atleast asked for immunity from abuse from your PTH friends.
@Suriah,
Are you sure that Nadeem said what you claim that he did. It can be very easily verified from the people you were kind enough to mention in your comment.
Meanwhile, Raza and his friends are doing their best to cover up for his pathetic misrepresentation of Shia Genocide. Raza Raja has written a long-winded lecture of liberalism on PTH. It has all the ET links of articles whose views he has presented. Ofcourse he has conviniently left out the links to Raza’s pathetic essay and even the LUBP post he is referring to.
Ethics anyone?
What is he afraid of. That those who read both sides of the story will come to the same conclusion that most of us have; that Raza Rumi’s post was not just strawmanning like Raza Raja post – it was devoid of context, and full of half truths and lies, It bordered on being insensitive to Shia genocide by conflating the alleged presence of 2 Shias, one Hindu and one Sikh as an implicit acceptance of Shia acquiensence to DPC. If that was not the implication, why throw that in the face of concerned Shia activists who don’t want their systemic killing by Taliban fanatics to be obscured by vague generalities.
I like how dilgently Raza Raja presents liberalism here
http://pakteahouse.net/2012/04/17/liberal-or-pseudo-liberal-a-needless-debate/
Its a pity that neither his editors or the rest of his article as it concerns LUBP matches up to it.
I must commend TherealYLH, not just for his timing but his picture in a Jinnah pose. This champion of secularism-liberalism was full of praise for Imran Khan after his Lahore concert last year as seen from his Daily Times article. Now that General Pasha has retired, TherealYLH (why, was he considered fake before that he has to emphasize on the Real) also must have realized that Imran’s fortunes are not as bright as they used to be. Who said opportunists are not smart.
I appreciate YLH for abusing and ridiculing me with his original name and have not taken refuge/cover of a clout of unfamiliar and unknown names just like 2 of my ex-colleagues to criticise me or calling names.
This Sukaina Rizvi, Jafri, Sajjad Hussain, YLH fan and a few more names are unknown to me, but they all discussing me like they know me for years.
Also, they do not hesitate in continuously misrepresenting and distorting what I have commented earlier. It were my friends from LUBP who have dragged ylh, a known abuser, a psychological misfit to the debate for the next round of abuse.
I am thankful to him, that he didn’t hide his dislike and hatred for me, warna friends from LUBP isey bhi Fixed qarar detey.
I don’t consider him worth reply, and am thankful to RR who edited his abusive post on Dr Taqi about Balochistan, after our criticism on twitter.
I disagree Raza Rumi on many issues as I stated earlier but it doesn’t compel me to use this space for abusing him as in the same way I do not find myself in agreement with LUBP.
I have used pen names for writing on different issues but being part of LUBP, never used any of them to criticise or ridicule LUBP as my founding editor, did while using his Laibaah pen name, when he was calling LUBP as LUDP, and was running a parallel offshoot PB with a tag line “De-realisation of LUBP”. Which he has changed now after claiming that his Laibaah ID is a multi-user account now.
My disagreement with LUBP was the same, if Abdul wants to run PB on a different path, as he has pretended from the tagline, he should but how are we liable to regularly cross post all these posts on LUBP. When at the end. You have to bring those post here, then what is the need of running that parallel offshoot.
If anyone can be criticised on this esteemed blog, why the hell Abdul is sacrosanct.
I have worked with LUBP, in fact I considers that time a memorable experience. And found Abdul one of the most loveable person to work and interact with, I still have a lot of respect for him, and I swear, I don’t write all of the above not due to my personal grudges or satisfying my ego, as am no body.
But, it pains me, when I find LUBP quoted and referred to for all the wrong reasons, I feel proud when its content is widely shared.
Ashaar k pardey mey, mey kis se mukhatib hun
Wo khud hi jaan lein ge, kyun naam liya jaye,
Aligram,
I always use my original name. Since I do not belong to the LUBP cabal this kind of behaviour is alien to me.
You are a busybody of the worst kind. This drama you are staging at the behest of LUBP is not fooling anyone least of all Raza.
If you recall it was you who started abusing me calling me a political orphan and what not because I don’t share your convoluted ideas and championing of crooks dead or alive.
Shamim Hussain,
Before I respond to your post, which is in any event a deliberate distortion of facts, please tell us if you are Abdul Nishapuri, Shaheryar Ali, sarah khan, or Aligram himself?
‘Rusty Walker???’ LOL! Yea, right.
Ali Arqam, for someone who is a pen name and who has several others, as said by you here, it is quite ironic you that quote the verses to challenge the identity of others.
Not that I care who you are; your comments on this thread are revealing as is your bitterness with Abdul.
You do not want to use the comments section of LUBP to talk about Raza’s misguided post, just to bash Abdul with things that sound paranoid.
You claim that Abdul is running a parallel blog (with a tagline that does not even exist as you wrongly suggest) and then cross posting from that blog. Wouldn’t it be simpler to assume that there are more bloggers – because your explaination, like much of your other comments is full of contradictions. And what is wrong in cross posting as long as one lists the source. You are not even a part of LUBP, yet you want to determine its policy! Are you serious?
No wonder, as you claim, you were asked to leave from here.
In this post, Raza Rumi called LUBP Let us Bully Pakistan, but ofcourse, your standards are flexible for him.
FYI, even Raza Rumi has written an article where he thankfully departs from calling the systematic masscres of Shias as “sectarian violence” and starts terming them as Shia Genocide. He also refers to bloggers who have campaigned on this. That article is a slight improvement from his earlier work on this. So Mr. Rumi has atleast managed to address, to an extant, what so many of us have been saying here.
“We are gradually moving towards the term ‘genocide’ when it relates to the Shia population. Of course, the term genocide has legal implications and well defined parameters. But there is a ‘cleansing’ of sorts underway in the case of Hazara. Indeed, the term ‘sectarianism’ that has been in currency is now outdated for the largely one-sided attack on Pakistani Shias.
Many bloggers in the social media have denounced the use of term sectarianism for the current spate of killings. But the term sectarian is also used to define what happens when large sections of society are brainwashed with a sectarian worldview, i.e. Wahabi-Salafi version, courtesy the generous grants by Middle Eastern countries to Pakistani madrassass”
http://jang.com.pk/thenews/apr2012-weekly/nos-15-04-2012/pol1.htm#1
Which begs the question as to why Raza Rumi wrote this weak and contradictary post just days before correcting himself. It also vindicates that LUBP was correct in pointing out Raza Rumi’s insensitive and inaccurate portrayal of Shia Genocide as “Sectarian/ethnic” violence.
What Raza Rumi conviniently omits to mention in this article is that the usage of the term “sectarian violence” by him and others earlier, did NOT properly qualify who were the victims (Shias) and the perpetrators (Jihadi and sectarian groups nurtured by ISI). Small steps nonetheless.
I just mention this because aside from circular logic, evasiveness and your bitterness against Abdul, this conversation has failed to yield much else. Perhaps Yasser might not be so wrong about you using even more fake names to talk to yourself in this comments section.
When all is said and done, it might surface that Ali Arqam mian was the main man behind all the fratricide that has created such bitterness between various blogs. I think Ali Arqam- alongwith his other possible “author” account Shaheryar Ali- started the whole “bait PTH” “bait punjabi elite” “bait Ali Dayan” “bait Raza Rumi” campaigns and now is playing another dangerous game. Out of the two, I would probably give Abdul Nishapuri the benefit of doubt but never this dubious fellow. I call upon all sides to halt and see what this guy is really up to.
@Suriah
Interesting that you claim what NFP said about LUBP. I was there too and yes, you are right he was having coffee with Rumi, Muhammad Hanif, Ayesha Siddiqua and Declan Walsh. But I certainly don’t remember him saying that LUBP has been infiltrated by ISI. Where did that come from? Yes I did hear him crack a joke about how LUBP is becoming myopic, but nothing about any infiltration. Kindly stop misquoting him.
Thank You Mr Jafri for finding yourself in agreement with Yasser. In fact I have already smelled that happening.
In fact, you have selective amnesia about the events and happenings in the last few months, you remember each and everything about me of my times at LUBP, but showing yourself ignorant to what I am telling about PB or how it started and managed in the last few months.
One thing is assuring that none of the LUBP regular authors and editors have been interfered in this whole useless debate here, even if someone did, he refrained from using his pen name, he is regularly contributing with, I know who is commenting with the jafri pen name, and I expect that selective memory from you.
I must admit that the whole discussion above on my part was futile, and I failed to convey what I had to say.
As for as YLH is concerned, whenever I found him in agreement with me, I will be suspicious of myself, Thank You LUBP for what I have learnt here being part of it,
Good Bye!!!
This will be my last comment (perhaps forever) on this website..
I just wanted to say that personally I have found Ali Arqam to be a nice and reasonable person. His biggest mistake (though he wont admit it) has been his association with this blog..
Regards and good bye
Raza
How Trolls are confounding the Shia Rights Discourse
April 25th, 2012
by Abdul Majeed
Source: Pak Tea House (editor: Raza Rumi)
An article recently published in a notorious blog went on to criticize The Friday Times, Raza Rumi, Saleem Javed, Khaled Ahmad and Ali Chishti,because they dared to use the word “sectarian killings” instead of “Shia genocide” which is the term favored by the author of that post. The article also posited that there is a systemic genocide committed against Shias and that the #DeepState is somehow promoting it. The author did not specify exactly what benefit the #DeepState gets if they are actually complicit, when all it does is to actually compromise and damage its own writ and control. The article wanted us to believe that “Sectarian Violence/Genocide” is being “mis-represented” as a Proxy war between Saudi Arabia and Iran. The article mentioned the plight of the Hazara Shias and that they are not the only people to be targeted by the state-sponsored elements, rather it is a wide-spread national issue.
1. First of all, let me admit that I think Shias have been mercilessly killed in Pakistan over the last 26 years, this killing has been supported by the Saudis and the sectarian groups were formed, if not at least facilitated, by the #DeepState
2. Selective Amnesia
There is a lot of flip-flopping and incessant nit-picking in the article. The issue of Genocide/Sectarian Killing is mostly a matter of Semantics. These people can claim that Genocide of Shias and Balcohs is being carried out while mostly ignoring the Genocide of settlers in Balochistan. They highlight it on rare occasions but ignore the 2000+ dead and 100,000 fleeing settlers from Balochistan just because of their ethnicity and THAT is an actual genocide!
Genocide is a very strong word to be thrown around to win cheap publicity and points. Who will take up the case of 35 thousand Non-Shia Non-Hazara innocent people killed by the same Takfiris? Should we call that a genocide as well.?
5. The #DeepState Question/Proposition
Regarding the fact that Establishment(#DeepState) provided tacit support to sectarian groups such as Sipah Sahaba(ASWJ) and the likes of it(as part of the flawed Strategic Depth policy), these groups are no longer in control of the Deep State.
These groups have outgrown their previous state backers and now openly declare them as enemies and facilitate some brutal attacks on the very #Deep State today. If the author got a chance to look at the newspapers in the last 3 years, there are numerous incidents where the Army even ISI and Commandos were attacked by the same groups due to their collaboration with the Takfiri Al Qaeda and TTP.
If the State’s role has to be questioned, then a better argument would be that the State has failed to ensure rule of law across the land, rather than conveniently blame it for all our collective ills.
http://pakteahouse.net/2012/04/25/how-trolls-are-confounding-the-shia-discourse/
Raza Rumi’s best friend is spreading sectarian venom in support of Sipah-e-Sahaba:
Zahi Aly @ZahiAlyy
@aamir_khan82 haan lekin unn k aisa karny sy Sunnis ka kirdar mashkook ho gaya hai mere bhai
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8h Aamir Nawaz Khan @aamir_khan82
@ZahiAlyy Bhai Jan kal subah mei ney Sunnis pe tweets ki thein pata nahi apney daikha ya nahi
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8h Zahi Aly @ZahiAlyy
@aamir_khan82 shayad main ne nahi dekha hoga
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8h Aamir Nawaz Khan @aamir_khan82
@ZahiAlyy kal mei tapa hua tha k hum Sunnis ka khun itna sasta k koi eik tweet karne ki zehmat nahi karta
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8h Zahi Aly @ZahiAlyy
@aamir_khan82 wohi tau main keh rha hun
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7h Aamir Nawaz Khan @aamir_khan82
@ZahiAlyy Inshallah will fight against self proclaimed champions aka LUBP forum
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7h Zahi Aly @ZahiAlyy
@aamir_khan82 http://criticalppp.com/archives/78270 yeh parha ap ne?
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7h Aamir Nawaz Khan @aamir_khan82
@ZahiAlyy nahi yar mei LUBP pe kabhi kabhi jata hn
Right now it seems like Drupal is the best blogging platform out there
right now. (from what I’ve read) Is that what you are using on your blog?