Do we need science or Islamic science? What do pro-liberal and pro-jihadi Pakistanis think?

Ghost of TK says:

December 23rd, 2008 at 2:34 pm

Beardo’s are cargo-culters. Look at Ajmal Kasab (who I did think at the time looked like a pacific islander) … this is a man who allegedly joined some group only so he would gain ‘valueable expereience’ in his robbery career. I’m sure he had a beard, he watched a lot of hypnotic jihadi videos of other saps prepping to go to the gallows, leaving sappy messages for their families etc etc.

But this ‘mujahid’ has no understanding of what he does. He is fodder. but it is not just him, the organization and the leaders thereof, are also fodder, of their handlers, (ISI? ) who are then in turn fodder for foreign power’s strategic (30-50 year plans) maneuverings. So he did blindly what he was asked to do, and like a whiny little b!tch, he sings like a canary when a military boot is up his a##.

But you know they’re supposed to die, not be “poster boys for jihad” which he, unwittingly, is.

This is the LAST kind of jihad, and the LAST kind of “mujahid” that one should aspire to be (in my personal opinion)… I’m not trying to play Ghamdi here, but seriously,

If you want to go to the moon, what do you do first? Do you build the cockpit first? hanging in the air or do you build the rocket first? but before you do that do you build the launch pad and the engines first? But wait! before you build the launch pad, you have to have the knowhow to build the complex that will support the launching activity…. all this leads back to one place.

A place of learning. Thinking. Exploring.

It leads back to the basics: Iqraa.

So, if you’re rearing to subdue europe and the west (now china, india and russia — since our youth are so feisty) … you get your a$$ back in the library.

The biggest jihad right now is building schools and libraries. I believe that to dissipate the nation in armed conflict now is criminal and exactly what your enemies want.

And I’m not talking about universities where the ‘research’ is all about “Optics based on Quran” and “covalent bond breakup in the light of the HOly Quran”

Seriously, Quran is not a science book. It is a guideline. Stop using it as a recipe book, politics knowhow book, physics, chemistry, aviation, and medicine book FOR CRYING OUT LOUD! Even the Muslims of the 10th century had THAT MUCH sense! No wonder the streets of Multan look in worse shape than the streets of Moen-Jo-Daro… and that shit’s been in ruins for 4000 years.

All because we’re ignorant, and we won’t face up to it.

So, this is why I’m against beardo’s. They attract our young to their doom with a simplistic, therefore seductive, but ultimately WRONG analysis of the situation. I’m not against beards, but the beardo’s have got to go!

I think Chris Rock’s analysis of “Blacks vs. Niggiz” (someone needs to do a “Muslims vs. Beardo’s” version of this) sortof kindof explains my sentiments on this issue.

beardos, you are not capable of having a serious conversation for ONCE? without regurgitating the BS that you are indoctrinated with?

Your starting point is an Islamic State and you want to ak-47 your way to it, and if you build schools (madrassah in arabic) you also want to use it as a tool, as a means to a violent end. THEN and ONLY THEN will you start the real work of society building. Until then, everything is fair game… killing, raping the country, destroying a perfectly good muslim country where people are pretty much free to practice Islam. All that gone for your HOMO fantasy land you call the islamic state.

What I’m saying is totally different. I’m making a distinction between, Islam, Muslims, Political Islamists, and freeking nutbag beardos.

You are accusing me of lumping everything together, not because I DID, but because you DIDN’T bother to comprehend and consider what was said.


shandana Says:
December 23rd, 2008 at 4:57 pm

You think those islamist who happened to be in Baghdad, Tashqand, Bukhara etc etc are the same as we do have now in Swat and related areas……Have you been there?
Do you really have an idea what kind of people they are?
Just ask some body who lives there or I guess you live there then you might be one of them otherwise it is not possible for any sensible person to support taliban.


texasboy Says:
December 23rd, 2008 at 8:59 pm


brilliant rebuttle mate, unfortunately our narrow-minded friends are too afraid of acknowledging their own weaknesses. Which makes it even harder to have a rational conversation with them… its always Ad hominem, ad hominem, ad hominem..

what islam (yes, ISLAM) needs is a reformation, i firmly believe anything left to human beings for interpretation cannot be without errors.

Iqbal wrote a dissertation on “reconstruction of religious thought in islam”… it is exactly that we need… a renaissance, a crash evolution in mentality that would put both religious zealots on par with social science and technology..

and honestly, i contend that it will require a massive and concerted effort from our religious community to come out of their bubble and make a case for universal morality (which by the way is the bedrock fo islam), and human rights.

i firmly believe that islam and science dont clash, but we need to try a different lens, a different prism to look to find common ground.

The first step in getting to that common ground is promoting education. and iqbal (who we too hastily neglect) showed us that way.
Marcvs_Tacitvs_Cicero Says:
December 23rd, 2008 at 9:02 pm

@GoTK, jazoo

Come on TK, lay off jazoo. Point out a single thing that he said that was factually incorrect. I think you baboo brigadiers have wisdom in your ankles (aql gittan ich). Muslim scientists have been the beacon of light throughout the downy mist of centuries.

Ibn Jubeir invented chemistry, Ibn Sina invented medicine, Ibn Rushd invented Optics, Sultan Bashiruddin Mahmood invented Jinn fired Power Plants and Mulla Fazlullah invented vaccination against polio vaccines (kaBoom!)

TK, your line of argumentation is disingenuous and dishonest. You say that Muslim scientists from the medieval era were different from the Muslim scientists of the modern era? How so?

Muslim scientists in the 12th century were dealing with the problems of polio and how it can be treated. Jamia Haqqania in Swat’s Center for Disease Dissemination has discovered that a carefully positioned improvised explosive device on the road frequented by lady health workers is a very effective vaccination and Islamisation technique.

Muslim scientists in the 11th century were struggling with the question of the global time and now a conference in Doha Qatar has discovered that Makkah is at the center of the world and Makkah Standard Time (MST, aka Mystery Science Theater) should be the new time standard.

And once again, opening schools and libraries is the job of the SECULAR GOVERNMENT (which we know to be haraam)and this poses no dilemmas for the Mujahidin. For them Jihad is enough. They are ready to face death, destruction and disembowelment in interesting ways. They are not frightened of death. (Only of classrooms, libraries and laboratories)

So, leave jazoo alone. He has true taqwa and may God guide him to the right path (hopefully aided by GPS).

Verily, there are signs in this for those who see and hear. And such sight and vision comes only when your beard ratio is greater than 12, ankle ratio is less than 5 and your atr kills within a 2m radius.

beard ratio=alf/bay,
alf=height in ft,
bay=beard shareef length in ft

bankle ratio=jeem/daal, where
jeem= length of calf covered by shalwar shareef in ft,
dal=length of calf covered by juraab shareef in ft


Ghost of TK says:

December 23rd, 2008 at 10:53 pm

@Marcvs_Tacitvs_Cicero: hahaha! that was funny man! I think you nailed it right here:

For them Jihad is enough. They are ready to face death, destruction and disembowelment in interesting ways. They are not frightened of death. (Only of classrooms, libraries and laboratories)

@jazoo: (this is a rant, and is going to make the least amount of sense)

I’m not conflating Islam, Islamism and Talibanism/Algayduh’ism. I have serious issues with the Islamist project but that project is well-defined (at least in theory – though it’s unattainable). I have a major problem with blind-faith beardo’s who are “muddahi sust, gavaah chust” type people. They are more muslim than Islam. They are illiterate, uncompromising, unthinking chasing after a mirage which isn’t there.

And the Islamists are fooled by this “raw emotion and energy” of the crazies. What I’m trying to say is that even though Most “islamists” support the taliban-style actions, what they are ignoring is that this taliban mentality (beardo interpretation of Islam) is actually FATAL to their project!

The pseudo-mujahid actions like the counter-productive shit in Kashmir or in Mumbai most recently is only an aid in a ratcheting action against the muslims and muslim nations.

This is NOT helping anyone, it is only helping those whose strategic aims it fulfills (that’s my contention and I’m sticking with it).

Please, remind me of ONE victory that the Islamists have had in the last 60 years which has NOT ultimately led to humiliation and disaster for the Muslims as a whole?

And Please, you can’t count Hizbollah. They are NOT beardo’s. I don’t even count them as “islamists”.

Egypt? against Jamal Abdunasir – Guess who is in Control of Egypt — USA
Jordan – USA
Saudi Arabia (and the pseudo kingdoms) – USA
Pakistan – USA
Afghanistan, its jihad etc. — USA
India / Kashmir — Kashmir’s cause has been equated with “terrorism” and the issue is on the back burner. The jihadi camps on the other hand are on the front burner.
Iraq – OMG USA again
Algeria – After all the killing, PRO USA though the West is complicit in denying the democratic right of the Islamists, but what did they do after the denial? back to slaughtering like the old times….

I don’t need to go into the track record of Algayduh and the Taliban (drug smugglers, school burners, just fvcking idiots to the max!!!)

So the pattern is very predictable:

Islamists, and now beardo’s are LURED into toppling stable, nationalistic government in the name of “Islam”, once the task is finished, they are discarded like disposable condoms and become enemies of state. The autocratic “leader” then proceeds to rule in a tyrannic fashion, and the Islamists are left to morph into beardo’s because of their disillusionment.

It works like clockwork. You can fool any emotional Muslim boy into killing himself in the name of Islam. The best weapon against Muslims is the fvcking Jihad by Individual doctrine.

Every single time you conduct your damn jihad, Muslims lose another foothold in this world.

By the time beardo’s are done, we’re going to be like the mongols. drifting in the world like nomads, or gypsies… our enemies used our own philosophy against us and we weren’t smart enough because we were too frikking un-lettered.


Ghost of TK Says:
December 24th, 2008 at 12:19 pm

@jazoo: Please stop calling it “Islamic Science” … Science is Science. Do you call a truck an “Islamic Truck” or a computer program “Islamic Computer Program” ???

In any case, if it will satisfy the “Islamic Fetish” of some people, All exprimental science stems out of the additions of the ‘experiment’ by Muslim scientists to the Greek knowledge.

This is what science is now and without it it is a farce.

I find it interesting that those who find the sunni, salafa, head-severing, blood-curdling, school-burning “Islam” of the salfi nutbags (bloodthirsty enemies of the Shia sec) attractive, have NO QUALMS in presenting the achievements of the Iranian state as their own.

Nice try @jazoo ! But you support Taliban, who came out of the same stinkhole ie; “Saudi” arabia , that popped out the evil child called Saddam’s Iraq. Iraq which got used as a condom at the “ungal of Saudi kings” and at the behest of Uncle Sam… almost exactly like another muslim nation (ring a bell? ITS YOU SILLY! YOUR”E THE ONE GETTING F***ED! YOU! PAKISTAN!)

This is what I call the “intellectual framework” … or “some kind of framework” that is needed behind a state. This is what Iranian state has behind it. This is exactly what the Pakistani state and its horrible hell-spawns like Taliban DONOT HAVE!

“Taliban” who think they’re going to glorify Islam as they drag us all down to the pits of hell, the meatgrinders at the other end of which they would meet their real masters and string-pullers — the zioinsts, the americans, the russians — were they in any shape to recognize the architects of their destruction that is. But they’d be “tasty burger” when all is said and done.

“Would you like fries with your Somalia Burger?”


jazoo Says:
December 24th, 2008 at 5:38 pm

Islamic science or call it whatever you like.
whats big deal in name–Call it beardo science as long as they know when to build “Cockpit”.
You are assuming things about me.
Show me where I support Taliban–There are few posters here I feel they support Taliban but they are scared to open themselves.
If I have to support Taliban I would do so right on your non beardo face.
I do not hate Taliban & I do not hate you either.
Accepting Taliban as reality is not supporting them.
Your hate mongering is not result oriented–you spew your poison & think that you have done a service to community.
Because you can not live with them list your non beardo plans.
What part of country you will keep for yourself & your non beardo imbeciles.
Would you give them Peshawar & Sawat–who will take Quetta.
Would you like to keep Karachi, Lahore & Multan(perhaps your hometown)–what about Pindi–Perhaps half Pindi should go to Lal Masjid & half to nincompoops like you.
You think writing too many posts without any sense & spewing anger is your achievement–who cares if you are angry.
Get yourself & your act together be positive–a senseless & meaningless poisonous post which only contaminate the minds of readers is achievement for those who are playing you & with your emotions & you are being played unknowingly.
You are not alone–there are many mental midgets like yourself on this very forum who are willingly being played.
When Imam Ali(as) got upper hand on Kharjiettes, his companion ask him to eliminate them–he strongly refused–Thats where we get the light from.
Be positive & show some character.


Ghost of TK Says:
December 24th, 2008 at 6:05 pm

@jazoo: The point is that the thing being stereotyped by that orientalist dude is not “islamic science” .. it is just science. it is research done using the scientific method (look it up or you prolly already know).

Science is science. Some of the Islamic countries are doing it. Iran, Malaysia are topmost. They also happen to be democracies with reasonably strong social structures and political institutions.

I guess you’re not a salafi. Fine. All I’m saying is that people conveniently take credit for science without making the distinction. There is a reason that Iran is surviving the american onslaught in a much better way, while we are acting like whores for americans (including allowing attacks on Iran from our territory — which washington conveniently forgets) and also getting treated like it.

Our scientific research institutions have been destroyed by “beardo’s” for lack of a better term. These are the IJT kan-tutta’s who have made it IMPOSSIBLE to do any kind of academic work in most universities.. and in their wake we see other student wings doing exactly the same things… You will see how Insaaf Student Federation starts using AK47’s .. there is NO way around it. IJT will kill your people and they will fight you where they’re best (not in debate but on the street with ak47)

Anyways, we and especially the people who believe in armed-islamic-revolution (ie; the taliban – in the real sense) can take credit of the Iranian achievement just because it happens to be a Muslim country.

The methods used by the two groups are wildly divergent. Iranians have a plan. Sunni salafists have NO PLAN (except of course JEEEHAAAADD!!!!)….

Like the mounty python knights of the round table, they charge the castle walls with swords… make trojan horses but forget to GET INSIDE them etc. etc.

It just shows a tendency to put education and learning in low regard. Something the prophet put in high regard.

I don’t have a problem with indigeous resistance against the western troops in Afghanistan. I think suicide tactics are counter-productive but whatever. But to do the same shit in Pakistan is un-acceptable.

who’s using these people? ISI, RAW, Mossad who knows. ISI is about as islamic an organization as RAW… so … if ISI can create a horde then so can RAW … some molvis are for sale. and it is very easy to fool a crowd which doesn’t look beyond Beards and loud protestations in support of Islam (actions may be diametrically opposed but ignorance protects them from the discomfort of knowing.)

So, the only hope we got as ‘whatever’ is in schools and libraries. Not as sexy as strapping one’self with Jew supplied RDX, but this is the ONLY Way to ANY KIND OF GLORY.



jazoo Says:
December 24th, 2008 at 6:37 pm


Its Islamic Science when you determine age & time of ensouling embryos from Quran.


Ghost of TK Says:
December 24th, 2008 at 10:26 pm

@jazoo: no offense but you sounded like a jamatia to me…;)

Also, what you gave as an example of “islamic science” is actually an example of application of Islamic jurisprudence to demarcate an area of scientific research

So, by way of example, the atomic discoveries are not “jewish science”. Even if the jewish religion set some guidelines on what areas are to be explored or permissible to explore. (they did not.)

For example, on the tech side, some jews follow sabbat (saturday?) and to observe it they cannot use telephone but they have some weird way around it in which no electrical contact is made but the connection is made through a coil when the reciever is lifted(I saw in documentary) …

This will be an example of application of jewish jurisprudence to a technical situation. But we cannot call it “Jewish Technology”

Also, Born-again christians think that the soul enters the body at conception (?). They want to put limits on stem cell research based on that RELIGIOUS understanding. So, the Iranian limits are “too lax” for the Bush type chrisitans.


Shirkuh Says:
December 24th, 2008 at 10:32 pm

Did Jazoo sound like a jamatia?
I think Jazoo is a KATARRRRRRR jamatia


azoo Says:
December 25th, 2008 at 7:21 am

I am not Jamatia.
But I am against stereotype bigotry.
We are made believe here JI & IJT are responsible for current situation of our nation on the contrary their part is minimal in our dilemma as compared to secular powers Military & Politicians, those mostly all along sitting on podium of monarchy for last 61 years are not beardos.
Jamat should take credit for her crimes only but to make them whole sole incharge of our destruction is bigotry.
Now we are talking as no political party has its terrorist representation in Universities & Colleges–When I said they do I was labeled as Jamatia.
And I do not like hypocrisy either, many at heart a Taliban but they will go to any length to get along with the trend on this forum which is predominantly an anti mulla forum.
There are three type of followings here–one is Zombie like because some big pens are anti mulla so anti mulla must be a right choice.
Other is shrewd following–One who must be counted should get along the trend, these are Talibani anti mulla.
Third it has become a fashion to curse mulla & be counted as intellectual. I have seen many suomoto self claimed intellectuals born recently because they can curse in style.
I am Muslim & a dual national Pakistani & I am not jamatia.
I have seen Pakistanis fighting on trivial issues in Pakistan Day parade in NY–we are fully charged with negativity which we can see on this very forum as well.
Many nations small & big celebrate their days in NY but no one fight like us–they show grace & dignity when they are abroad even India, their parades are very discipline.
So man is hungry for recognition & look for things he could feel proud of–I personally could not find any reason to feel proud as Pakistani but I must say I really felt proud as Muslim.
Nothing make me feel more proud than my religion & my affiliation with Mola Ali & Imam Hussain–we have very strong & rich database which make us a thinker not a Zombie.