Note: This self-explanatory exchange with an Ahmadiyya Muslim friend has been cross-posted from facebook, with minor edits and explanations. Our support for Ahmadiyya Muslims is archived here: https://lubpak.com/archives/tag/ahmadiyya-muslims In our considered view, Takfeer (apostatizing) in all of its forms, whether it is through a constitutional amendment or through the sermons of a religious personality, is the root cause of intolerance and violence, which must be unconditionally condemend. All those who apostatize Ahmadis and non-Ahmadis must be condemned in equal and clear terms. Also, a few activists’ blaming the victim discourse of “since your cleric did our takfeer, hence you deserve discrimination and violence”, “you reap what you sow”, or “our clerics are good, your clerics are bad” is distasteful and insensitive particularly when the aggrieved community is collecting deadbodies on a daily basis. You are encouraged to read this entire conversation, particularly the conclusion of this post.
Abdul Nishapuri: Those Shias and Ahmadis who are urging each other not to call each other kafir must clearly name and condemn all those clerics within Shia and Ahmadi sects who described non-Shias and non-Ahmadis as Kafirs. As a starter, can we start naming such Takfiri clerics along with their Kafir-declaring statements against non-Shias and non-Ahmadis?
PS: Beware of Deobandi and Salafi thugs who want to create disunity between the persecuted communities. Therefore, persecuted communities must not engage in holier than thou type counterproductive arguments and allegations against each other. Focus on the Deobandi and Salafi takfiri idoelogy if you want to live, else not a single Sunni Barelvi, Shia, Ahmadi, Christian or Hindu will survive in Pakistan.
Kashif N Chaudhry: I am not aware of any Ahmadi Muslim cleric who has ever made bigoted remarks or asked for the rights and freedoms of the Shias to be curtailed. The Khalifa himself has spoken against ongoing #ShiaGenocide.
In all honesty, I know not of any Shia cleric who has spoken for Ahmadi rights openly. I know of many who take pride in being part of the anti-Ahmadi movement in Pakistan and consider Ahmadi Muslims wajib ul Qatal. This is an example: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zZtDQrbR-OI
P.S: There are too many examples and I will not flood your status update. There are also many examples of people like you who are eager to see a change in the attitudes of our clergy. GodSpeed!
Abdul Nishapuri: As a matter of principle, I condemn all those (Sunni and a few Shia) clerics who are involved in hate speech against Ahmadiyya Muslims. My friends at LUBP have published quite a few articles on this topic. However, the role of Shia clerics in anti-Ahmadi hate speech is widely exaggerated by misinformed people or false neutral thugs. See this post: https://lubpak.com/archives/73587
Abdul Nishapuri: Kashif, Can you please respond to this comment received from a mutual friend:
Evidence of hate speech against non-Ahmadis by Ahmadi clerics:
“Allah has revealed to me that he who does not follow me and does not give me his oath of allegiance and remains in opposition is disobeying the will of Allah and His Rasul and is Jahannami (doomed to Hell).”
(Collection of Posters, Vol. 3, P. 275; Mirza Ghulam Ahmed Sahib Qadiani) http://irshad.org/img/mal03275.gif
Mirza Mahmud Ahmad wrote a book A’inah-i Sadaqat, published in 1921, which was translated into English and first published in 1924 under the title The Truth about the Split. In this book, while acknowledging his beliefs, he writes:
“(3) the belief that all those so-called Muslims who have not entered into his [i.e. Hazrat Mirza Ghulam Ahmad’s] Bai’at formally, wherever they may be, are Kafirs and outside the pale of Islam, even though they may not have heard the name of the Promised Messiah. That these beliefs have my full concurrence, I readily admit.”
— The Truth about the Split, Rabwah, 1965, pp. 55–56. The 2007 edition of this book is available on the Qadiani website from the link www.alislam.org/books/. See page 56 for this extract.
See original Urdu text below from the book A’inah-i Sadaqat [Urdu 1].
Kashif N Chaudhry: Abdul, The Ahmadiyya Muslim position is that all those who consider themselves Muslim are to be considered so. There is no question about taking away someone’s right to identity. This is why despite the statement quoted, Ahmadiyya literature continues to refer to all Sunni and Shia Muslims as such. The fourth Khalifa has answered this very well and I will paste the video here as soon as I find it.
Having said that, I do not mind anyone considering me non-Muslim. What matters is intruding one anothers’ personal space and limiting freedoms e.g second amendment and ordinance xx of Pakistan. Many shia clerics take pride in being at the forefront of the anti-Ahmadi movement. They go as far as calling Ahmadi Muslims wajib-ul-qatal.
The Ahmadi Khalifa on the other hand, speaks up for #ShiaGenocide in his friday sermon. I will also leave a link to that soon.
Abdul Nishapuri: Kashif, Do you agree with this specific statement? “Allah has revealed to me that he who does not follow me and does not give me his oath of allegiance and remains in opposition is disobeying the will of Allah and His Rasul and is Jahannami (doomed to Hell).” Please be direct in your answer. Thank you.
I am asking this because I categorically condemn all Sunni and Shia clerics who consider people of other sects as Jahannumi or/and Kafir. I expect the same from you.
Kashif N Chaudhry: This will answer you: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NXtEcPa8jIQ And yes every sect does consider itself true and others at wrong. If you are a Shia Muslim, it is because you consider its tenets right and the reason you are not an Ahmadi Muslim is because you do not believe in Mirza Ghulam Ahmad as the promised Messiah and consider him a false claimant. Similarly, I believe he is a true claimant and every Muslim should believe in him and benefit from his teachings. This is why I am an Ahmadi Muslim. However, does that mean I declare anyone non-Muslim? No! Do I hate other Muslims? No! In fact, I consider myself a true Muslim only as long as I am a humanitarian and benefit all peoples. Mirza Tahir Ahmad has explained it well in the video above.
As long as there is no violence and hostility and no restriction of freedoms and attack on basic human rights, one is free to consider the other whatever they wish.
Abdul Nishapuri: Kashif, In other words, you subscribe to the view that those who do not believe in Mirza Sahib are Jahannumi and Kafir? Right?
As for me, I do not subscribe to the view that those Deobandis or Ahmadis etc who do not believe in 12 infallible Imams are Kafir or Jahannumi.
Now can you, once again, clarify your personal position on this issue?
Kashif N Chaudhry: No, I do not believe so. I am an ordinary Muslim. As stated in the video I posted, IF Mirza Ahmad is God’s prophet, then anyone who fails to recognize him is disobeying God. Does that give me the authority or right to declare someone non-Muslim or hell-bound? No!
Abdul Nishapuri: Fair enough. Although I expected you to clearly condemn statements by Ahmadi clerics in which non-Ahmadis have been declared Jahannumi and Kafir, the way I categorically condemned anti-Ahmadi statements by Shia clerics.
Once again, please read my PS in the original post (above). It doesn’t help any one (including Ahmadis and Shias) to refer to isolated videos or statements of Ahmadi, Shia or Sunni Barelvi clerics to prove that our clerics are better than yours. This holier than thou argumentation is counter-productive and self-defeating. Persecuted communities should help, not challenge or confront each other.
Kashif N Chaudhry: Abdul, I am not being confrontational at all. I have always praised Shia activists like you and Shumaila for their stance on Ahmadi rights. However, I’d love to see a first amongst Shia clergy openly speaking for Ahmadi Muslim rights. I am sorry if you feel my tone is confrontational. It is actually pained. I do not expect a leader from a fellow persecuted community to call me wajib Ul qatal or defend laws that take away my basic rights. Shumaila asked for names. I posted the video. There are numerous other names who have called for restriction of Ahmadi rights and declared us Wajib Ul qatal.
I know in time change will come and Shia leadership will follow your example. Peace
Abdul Nishapuri: Kashif, Can you cite a single fatwa by a Shia mujtahid in which Ahmadis were delcared Kafir or Jahannumi?
In contrast, I cited Mirza Sahib and his Khalifa Sahib’s own statements about the Kafir and Jahannumi status of non-Ahmadis.
Kashif N Chaudhry: There’s not one, numerous statements in which Shia clergy has declared Ahmadis not just Kafirs, but Wajib ul qatal and agents of Israel, anti-Pakistan, worst enemies of Islam and Pakistan etc etc. If you want, I can look for them and paste them here. But I guess Shaheedi Sahib’s example should suffice.
Abdul Nishapuri: Kashif, Shaheedi is not a mujtahid!! As a matter of fact, he is describing only Mirza Sahib (the person who describeas all non-Ahmadis as Kafir and Jahannumi) as Kazzab and Wajib-ul-Qatl. In the video, he doesn’t say that Ahmadis are wajib-ul-qatl. Yet, his statement against Mirza Sahib must be unconditionally condemned in exactly the same manner in which we must condemn Mirza Sahib’s hate statements against non-Ahmadis. No?
I asked: Can you cite a single fatwa by a Shia mujtahid in which Ahmadis were delcared Kafir or Jahannumi?
Kashif N Chaudhry: I do not know who a Mujtahid is exactly.
Abdul Nishapuri: A Mujtahid is a fatwa giving authority in Shia Islam. Every Shia cleric is not a Mujtahid.
Kashif N Chaudhry: And one again, Ahmadi Muslims consider all other Muslims – Muslim. Mirza Ghulam Ahmad (as) has made this clear himself and has never asked Ahmadis not to refer to any non-Ahmadi Muslim as Kafir, but as Muslim.
Kashif N Chaudhry: www.alislam.org is the official website of the Ahmadiyya Muslim Community. Scan it and see for yourself. Shia Muslims and Sunni Muslims are the terminology used. On the contrary, which Shia “Mujtahid” has ever referred to Ahmadis as Muslim?
Kashif N Chaudhry: So you are saying Shaheedi calling Ahmadis wajib ul qatal does not count?
Abdul Nishapuri: I have already condemned Shaheedi’s views about Mirza Sahib and Mirza Sahib’s views about non-Ahmadis. Moreover, I don’t need to refer to alislam.org website. I have referred to the highest authority in Ahmadiyya Muslim community who, in his own words, is calling all non-Ahmadis as Jahannumi. Right?
Please note that Shaheedi’s words are not obligatory for Shia Muslims at all. In fact he is widely criticized by many Shias. And I clearly condemn his hate speech against Mirza Sahib, the way I condemn Mirza Sahib’s hate speech against non-Ahmadis.
Bear in mind that Shia activist sites including SK, Progressive Shia Association and LUBP (a joint site of Shias and Sunni Barelvis) have categorically supported Ahmadiyya Muslims and criticized hate remarks by one or two Shia clerics.
Kashif N Chaudhry: The alislam website has 86 books written by this highest authority, including books written after the statement you quote. In these books, he continues to refer to all Muslims as Muslims. So, his statement must be taken in context and from his original writings, as explained in the video I posted above by Mirza Tahir Ahmad.
There is no comparison here. Like I said, there is not ONE Shia cleric I know who considers Ahmadis Muslim or speaks for their basic human rights in Pakistan. Whoever I have heard on this issue has spoken against the Ahmadis and spread hatred against them.
You quote me ONE Shia cleric who is different?
Abdul Nishapuri: “his statement must be taken in context and from his original writings” — can you please explain the context in which Mirza Sahib described non-Ahmadis as Jahannumi?
Kashif N Chaudhry: You said Shaheedi Sahib’s words are not obligatory. Mirza Sahib’s are I admit. Then why does not a SINGLE Ahmadi declare or consider any Shia or Sunni a non-Muslim? Exactly for the same reason: Mirza Sahib has taught us not to judge and respect the right to identity.
Shia Muslims has been used a gazillion times in Ahmadi literature. You cant find me ONE Ahmadi Muslim who considers Shias anything but Muslim.
Likewise, you cant find me ONE Shia cleric who considers Ahmadis Muslim. Can you?
Abdul Nishapuri: Here’s this fatwa by a Shia Mujtahid, one of the highest authorities in present day Shia Islam:
Kashif N Chaudhry: Thats great Abdul. Is there any reference to a Mujtahid’s condemnation of anti-Ahmadi bigotry by Shia clerics in Pakistan?
Kashif N Chaudhry: You are comparing a whole community that considers Shias nothing but Muslim and you can find not ONE Ahamdi who considers Shias anything else with a community who’s clerics consistently consider Ahmadis non-Muslim and there is not ONE Shia literature that would reference the term “Ahmadi Muslim.”
On the one hand there are clerics who consider Ahmadi Muslims wajib ul qatal and on the other you have the supreme head of the Ahamdi community who speaks up against #ShiaGenocide.
Kashif N Chaudhry: Has any Mujtahid ever spoken for Ahmadi Muslim rights? Rights which Shia clerics in Pakistan have helped curtail?
Abdul Nishapuri: Ask him the quesion directly on his web site if you wish.
Personally I don’t trust clergy be it Shia or Ahmadi.
Kashif N Chaudhry: It is the Mujtahis’s responsibility to speak up for human rights and especially when Shia clerics have been involved in curtailing those rights.
Abdul Nishapuri: Kashif, I condemn Shaheedi’s and all other clerics’ anti-Ahmadi statement. Do you condemn Mirza Sahib’s statement about non-Ahmadis? Be direct and honest please!
Kashif N Chaudhry: Have the Mujtahid’s spoken up for Bahai’s in Iran btw?
Abdul Nishapuri: Now you are digressing!!!!
Kashif N Chaudhry: I have told you that this isolated statement from an anti-Ahmadi website does not represent the position of Mirza Sahib or the community. The proof is in the pudding – not ONE Ahmadi Muslim calls/considers Shias anything but Muslim.
I also told you that Shia clergy (across the board) consider Ahmadis not only Kafirs but some declare them Wajib ul Qatal.
Abdul Nishapuri: “Shia clergy (across the board) consider Ahmadis not only Kafirs but some declare them Wajib ul Qatal.” is a blatant lie. In contrast, you remain in denial or apologist mode about Mirza Sahib’s statements about non-Ahmadis. Shabash!
Kashif N Chaudhry: Do you want me to stop condemning the likes of Shaheedi who call for my death? If so, I shall not Sir. I still await the day when a Shia Aalim has the moral integrity to denounce the wrongs of their elders and speak for my rights.
Kashif N Chaudhry: What is lie there? Ok then why dont you name ONE Shia cleric who considers Ahmadis Muslim? Shabash!
Abdul Nishapuri: “Shia clergy (across the board) consider Ahmadis not only Kafirs but some declare them Wajib ul Qatal.” is not equal to ” why dont you name ONE Shia cleric who considers Ahmadis Muslim?”
Kashif N Chaudhry: 1) Name one Ahmadi who considers Shia Muslims Kafir and does not call them Muslim.
2) Name one Shia cleric who considers Ahmadis not Kafir or speaks for their rights in Pakistan.
That will be all. Peace out. And you need not be defensive. Let us admit our wrongs and work on tolerance in our communities. Peace.
Abdul Nishapuri: I have already named Mirza Sahib and his Khalifa who consider non-Ahmadis as Jahannumi. Also, I admitted wrongs of Shia clerics and condemned them. I did not hide behind “Mirza Sahiba’s statement against non-Ahmdis is taken out of context!” Here’s another few videos in which Ahmadi clerics are describing non-Ahmadis as Kafir:
I am sorry I had to reproduce these vidoes and statements in response to the “Ahmadi clerics are better than Shia clerics” type attitude.
Kashif N Chaudhry: //”Shia clergy (across the board) consider Ahmadis not only Kafirs but some declare them Wajib ul Qatal.” is not equal to ” why dont you name ONE Shia cleric who considers Ahmadis Muslim?”// Prove me wrong by quoting ONE Mujtahid or Aalim. Till then, lets just keep doing what we do best – speak up for each other and be an example for elders.
Abdul Nishapuri: Till then, we must also refrain from holier than thou attitude. We are collecting deadbodies here and do not want any apologists of hate clerics to teach us universal human rights!
Kashif N Chaudhry: I am not hiding behind anything. Read the full passage and understand the context, as explained in video I posted. If Mirza Sahib believed Shias and Sunnis were Kafirs, why is there not ONE Ahmadi who considers Shias and Sunnis anything but Muslim? I mean, we die for all our beliefs, why would we hide this one?
Kashif N Chaudhry: I am proud of my leadership Abdul. Leadership that speaks for the rights of Shia Muslims, even though Shia clergy has always taken pride in their anti-Ahmadi stance and actions. This is moral integrity. You do not keep grudges but speak up for rights when humanity is suffering. I am very proud of such leadership and I pray I see the same attitudes amongst all Muslim clergy, amen.
Abdul Nishapuri: I am not proud of Shia clergy and I pity those who are proud of clergy of any kind! Particuarly that clergy which considers followers of other sects Kafir and Jahannumi!
Kashif N Chaudhry:^ I would curse such clergy equally. Thank God, I see tolerance and love in my clerics.
Abdul Nishapuri: I intend to publish this conversation to serve as useful guide for Ahmadi and Shia activists to refrain from confrontational and holier than thou attitude.
Persecuted communities must not engage in holier than thou type counterproductive arguments and allegations against each other. Finding faults with each other based on micro-analyses and isolated videos or statements won’t help anyone. Focus on the Deobandi Takfiri idoelogy of hate clerics of TTP-ASWJ if you want to live, else not a single Sunni Barelvi, Shia, Ahmadi, Christian or Hindu will survive in Pakistan.