Ahmadi and Shia activists must support, not confront, each other! – by Abdul Nishapuri
Note: This self-explanatory exchange with an Ahmadiyya Muslim friend has been cross-posted from facebook, with minor edits and explanations. Our support for Ahmadiyya Muslims is archived here: https://lubpak.com/archives/tag/ahmadiyya-muslims In our considered view, Takfeer (apostatizing) in all of its forms, whether it is through a constitutional amendment or through the sermons of a religious personality, is the root cause of intolerance and violence, which must be unconditionally condemend. All those who apostatize Ahmadis and non-Ahmadis must be condemned in equal and clear terms. Also, a few activists’ blaming the victim discourse of “since your cleric did our takfeer, hence you deserve discrimination and violence”, “you reap what you sow”, or “our clerics are good, your clerics are bad” is distasteful and insensitive particularly when the aggrieved community is collecting deadbodies on a daily basis. You are encouraged to read this entire conversation, particularly the conclusion of this post.
Abdul Nishapuri: Those Shias and Ahmadis who are urging each other not to call each other kafir must clearly name and condemn all those clerics within Shia and Ahmadi sects who described non-Shias and non-Ahmadis as Kafirs. As a starter, can we start naming such Takfiri clerics along with their Kafir-declaring statements against non-Shias and non-Ahmadis?
PS: Beware of Deobandi and Salafi thugs who want to create disunity between the persecuted communities. Therefore, persecuted communities must not engage in holier than thou type counterproductive arguments and allegations against each other. Focus on the Deobandi and Salafi takfiri idoelogy if you want to live, else not a single Sunni Barelvi, Shia, Ahmadi, Christian or Hindu will survive in Pakistan.
Kashif N Chaudhry: I am not aware of any Ahmadi Muslim cleric who has ever made bigoted remarks or asked for the rights and freedoms of the Shias to be curtailed. The Khalifa himself has spoken against ongoing #ShiaGenocide.
In all honesty, I know not of any Shia cleric who has spoken for Ahmadi rights openly. I know of many who take pride in being part of the anti-Ahmadi movement in Pakistan and consider Ahmadi Muslims wajib ul Qatal. This is an example: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zZtDQrbR-OI
P.S: There are too many examples and I will not flood your status update. There are also many examples of people like you who are eager to see a change in the attitudes of our clergy. GodSpeed!
Abdul Nishapuri: As a matter of principle, I condemn all those (Sunni and a few Shia) clerics who are involved in hate speech against Ahmadiyya Muslims. My friends at LUBP have published quite a few articles on this topic. However, the role of Shia clerics in anti-Ahmadi hate speech is widely exaggerated by misinformed people or false neutral thugs. See this post: https://lubpak.com/archives/73587
Abdul Nishapuri: Kashif, Can you please respond to this comment received from a mutual friend:
Evidence of hate speech against non-Ahmadis by Ahmadi clerics:
“Allah has revealed to me that he who does not follow me and does not give me his oath of allegiance and remains in opposition is disobeying the will of Allah and His Rasul and is Jahannami (doomed to Hell).”
(Collection of Posters, Vol. 3, P. 275; Mirza Ghulam Ahmed Sahib Qadiani) http://irshad.org/img/mal03275.gif
Mirza Mahmud Ahmad wrote a book A’inah-i Sadaqat, published in 1921, which was translated into English and first published in 1924 under the title The Truth about the Split. In this book, while acknowledging his beliefs, he writes:
“(3) the belief that all those so-called Muslims who have not entered into his [i.e. Hazrat Mirza Ghulam Ahmad’s] Bai’at formally, wherever they may be, are Kafirs and outside the pale of Islam, even though they may not have heard the name of the Promised Messiah. That these beliefs have my full concurrence, I readily admit.”
— The Truth about the Split, Rabwah, 1965, pp. 55–56. The 2007 edition of this book is available on the Qadiani website from the link www.alislam.org/books/. See page 56 for this extract.
See original Urdu text below from the book A’inah-i Sadaqat [Urdu 1].
http://www.ahmadiyya.org/qadis/takfir1.htm#u1
Kashif N Chaudhry: Abdul, The Ahmadiyya Muslim position is that all those who consider themselves Muslim are to be considered so. There is no question about taking away someone’s right to identity. This is why despite the statement quoted, Ahmadiyya literature continues to refer to all Sunni and Shia Muslims as such. The fourth Khalifa has answered this very well and I will paste the video here as soon as I find it.
Having said that, I do not mind anyone considering me non-Muslim. What matters is intruding one anothers’ personal space and limiting freedoms e.g second amendment and ordinance xx of Pakistan. Many shia clerics take pride in being at the forefront of the anti-Ahmadi movement. They go as far as calling Ahmadi Muslims wajib-ul-qatal.
The Ahmadi Khalifa on the other hand, speaks up for #ShiaGenocide in his friday sermon. I will also leave a link to that soon.
Abdul Nishapuri: Kashif, Do you agree with this specific statement? “Allah has revealed to me that he who does not follow me and does not give me his oath of allegiance and remains in opposition is disobeying the will of Allah and His Rasul and is Jahannami (doomed to Hell).” Please be direct in your answer. Thank you.
I am asking this because I categorically condemn all Sunni and Shia clerics who consider people of other sects as Jahannumi or/and Kafir. I expect the same from you.
Kashif N Chaudhry: This will answer you: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NXtEcPa8jIQ And yes every sect does consider itself true and others at wrong. If you are a Shia Muslim, it is because you consider its tenets right and the reason you are not an Ahmadi Muslim is because you do not believe in Mirza Ghulam Ahmad as the promised Messiah and consider him a false claimant. Similarly, I believe he is a true claimant and every Muslim should believe in him and benefit from his teachings. This is why I am an Ahmadi Muslim. However, does that mean I declare anyone non-Muslim? No! Do I hate other Muslims? No! In fact, I consider myself a true Muslim only as long as I am a humanitarian and benefit all peoples. Mirza Tahir Ahmad has explained it well in the video above.
As long as there is no violence and hostility and no restriction of freedoms and attack on basic human rights, one is free to consider the other whatever they wish.
Abdul Nishapuri: Kashif, In other words, you subscribe to the view that those who do not believe in Mirza Sahib are Jahannumi and Kafir? Right?
As for me, I do not subscribe to the view that those Deobandis or Ahmadis etc who do not believe in 12 infallible Imams are Kafir or Jahannumi.
Now can you, once again, clarify your personal position on this issue?
Kashif N Chaudhry: No, I do not believe so. I am an ordinary Muslim. As stated in the video I posted, IF Mirza Ahmad is God’s prophet, then anyone who fails to recognize him is disobeying God. Does that give me the authority or right to declare someone non-Muslim or hell-bound? No!
Abdul Nishapuri: Fair enough. Although I expected you to clearly condemn statements by Ahmadi clerics in which non-Ahmadis have been declared Jahannumi and Kafir, the way I categorically condemned anti-Ahmadi statements by Shia clerics.
Once again, please read my PS in the original post (above). It doesn’t help any one (including Ahmadis and Shias) to refer to isolated videos or statements of Ahmadi, Shia or Sunni Barelvi clerics to prove that our clerics are better than yours. This holier than thou argumentation is counter-productive and self-defeating. Persecuted communities should help, not challenge or confront each other.
Kashif N Chaudhry: Abdul, I am not being confrontational at all. I have always praised Shia activists like you and Shumaila for their stance on Ahmadi rights. However, I’d love to see a first amongst Shia clergy openly speaking for Ahmadi Muslim rights. I am sorry if you feel my tone is confrontational. It is actually pained. I do not expect a leader from a fellow persecuted community to call me wajib Ul qatal or defend laws that take away my basic rights. Shumaila asked for names. I posted the video. There are numerous other names who have called for restriction of Ahmadi rights and declared us Wajib Ul qatal.
I know in time change will come and Shia leadership will follow your example. Peace
Abdul Nishapuri: Kashif, Can you cite a single fatwa by a Shia mujtahid in which Ahmadis were delcared Kafir or Jahannumi?
In contrast, I cited Mirza Sahib and his Khalifa Sahib’s own statements about the Kafir and Jahannumi status of non-Ahmadis.
Kashif N Chaudhry: There’s not one, numerous statements in which Shia clergy has declared Ahmadis not just Kafirs, but Wajib ul qatal and agents of Israel, anti-Pakistan, worst enemies of Islam and Pakistan etc etc. If you want, I can look for them and paste them here. But I guess Shaheedi Sahib’s example should suffice.
Abdul Nishapuri: Kashif, Shaheedi is not a mujtahid!! As a matter of fact, he is describing only Mirza Sahib (the person who describeas all non-Ahmadis as Kafir and Jahannumi) as Kazzab and Wajib-ul-Qatl. In the video, he doesn’t say that Ahmadis are wajib-ul-qatl. Yet, his statement against Mirza Sahib must be unconditionally condemned in exactly the same manner in which we must condemn Mirza Sahib’s hate statements against non-Ahmadis. No?
I asked: Can you cite a single fatwa by a Shia mujtahid in which Ahmadis were delcared Kafir or Jahannumi?
Kashif N Chaudhry: I do not know who a Mujtahid is exactly.
Abdul Nishapuri: A Mujtahid is a fatwa giving authority in Shia Islam. Every Shia cleric is not a Mujtahid.
Kashif N Chaudhry: And one again, Ahmadi Muslims consider all other Muslims – Muslim. Mirza Ghulam Ahmad (as) has made this clear himself and has never asked Ahmadis not to refer to any non-Ahmadi Muslim as Kafir, but as Muslim.
Kashif N Chaudhry: www.alislam.org is the official website of the Ahmadiyya Muslim Community. Scan it and see for yourself. Shia Muslims and Sunni Muslims are the terminology used. On the contrary, which Shia “Mujtahid” has ever referred to Ahmadis as Muslim?
Kashif N Chaudhry: So you are saying Shaheedi calling Ahmadis wajib ul qatal does not count?
Abdul Nishapuri: I have already condemned Shaheedi’s views about Mirza Sahib and Mirza Sahib’s views about non-Ahmadis. Moreover, I don’t need to refer to alislam.org website. I have referred to the highest authority in Ahmadiyya Muslim community who, in his own words, is calling all non-Ahmadis as Jahannumi. Right?
Please note that Shaheedi’s words are not obligatory for Shia Muslims at all. In fact he is widely criticized by many Shias. And I clearly condemn his hate speech against Mirza Sahib, the way I condemn Mirza Sahib’s hate speech against non-Ahmadis.
Bear in mind that Shia activist sites including SK, Progressive Shia Association and LUBP (a joint site of Shias and Sunni Barelvis) have categorically supported Ahmadiyya Muslims and criticized hate remarks by one or two Shia clerics.
Kashif N Chaudhry: The alislam website has 86 books written by this highest authority, including books written after the statement you quote. In these books, he continues to refer to all Muslims as Muslims. So, his statement must be taken in context and from his original writings, as explained in the video I posted above by Mirza Tahir Ahmad.
There is no comparison here. Like I said, there is not ONE Shia cleric I know who considers Ahmadis Muslim or speaks for their basic human rights in Pakistan. Whoever I have heard on this issue has spoken against the Ahmadis and spread hatred against them.
You quote me ONE Shia cleric who is different?
Abdul Nishapuri: “his statement must be taken in context and from his original writings” — can you please explain the context in which Mirza Sahib described non-Ahmadis as Jahannumi?
Kashif N Chaudhry: You said Shaheedi Sahib’s words are not obligatory. Mirza Sahib’s are I admit. Then why does not a SINGLE Ahmadi declare or consider any Shia or Sunni a non-Muslim? Exactly for the same reason: Mirza Sahib has taught us not to judge and respect the right to identity.
Shia Muslims has been used a gazillion times in Ahmadi literature. You cant find me ONE Ahmadi Muslim who considers Shias anything but Muslim.
Likewise, you cant find me ONE Shia cleric who considers Ahmadis Muslim. Can you?
Abdul Nishapuri: Here’s this fatwa by a Shia Mujtahid, one of the highest authorities in present day Shia Islam:
Kashif N Chaudhry: Thats great Abdul. Is there any reference to a Mujtahid’s condemnation of anti-Ahmadi bigotry by Shia clerics in Pakistan?
Kashif N Chaudhry: You are comparing a whole community that considers Shias nothing but Muslim and you can find not ONE Ahamdi who considers Shias anything else with a community who’s clerics consistently consider Ahmadis non-Muslim and there is not ONE Shia literature that would reference the term “Ahmadi Muslim.”
On the one hand there are clerics who consider Ahmadi Muslims wajib ul qatal and on the other you have the supreme head of the Ahamdi community who speaks up against #ShiaGenocide.
Kashif N Chaudhry: Has any Mujtahid ever spoken for Ahmadi Muslim rights? Rights which Shia clerics in Pakistan have helped curtail?
Abdul Nishapuri: Ask him the quesion directly on his web site if you wish.
Personally I don’t trust clergy be it Shia or Ahmadi.
Kashif N Chaudhry: It is the Mujtahis’s responsibility to speak up for human rights and especially when Shia clerics have been involved in curtailing those rights.
Abdul Nishapuri: Kashif, I condemn Shaheedi’s and all other clerics’ anti-Ahmadi statement. Do you condemn Mirza Sahib’s statement about non-Ahmadis? Be direct and honest please!
Kashif N Chaudhry: Have the Mujtahid’s spoken up for Bahai’s in Iran btw?
Abdul Nishapuri: Now you are digressing!!!!
Kashif N Chaudhry: I have told you that this isolated statement from an anti-Ahmadi website does not represent the position of Mirza Sahib or the community. The proof is in the pudding – not ONE Ahmadi Muslim calls/considers Shias anything but Muslim.
I also told you that Shia clergy (across the board) consider Ahmadis not only Kafirs but some declare them Wajib ul Qatal.
Abdul Nishapuri: “Shia clergy (across the board) consider Ahmadis not only Kafirs but some declare them Wajib ul Qatal.” is a blatant lie. In contrast, you remain in denial or apologist mode about Mirza Sahib’s statements about non-Ahmadis. Shabash!
Kashif N Chaudhry: Do you want me to stop condemning the likes of Shaheedi who call for my death? If so, I shall not Sir. I still await the day when a Shia Aalim has the moral integrity to denounce the wrongs of their elders and speak for my rights.
Kashif N Chaudhry: What is lie there? Ok then why dont you name ONE Shia cleric who considers Ahmadis Muslim? Shabash!
Abdul Nishapuri: “Shia clergy (across the board) consider Ahmadis not only Kafirs but some declare them Wajib ul Qatal.” is not equal to ” why dont you name ONE Shia cleric who considers Ahmadis Muslim?”
Kashif N Chaudhry: 1) Name one Ahmadi who considers Shia Muslims Kafir and does not call them Muslim.
2) Name one Shia cleric who considers Ahmadis not Kafir or speaks for their rights in Pakistan.
That will be all. Peace out. And you need not be defensive. Let us admit our wrongs and work on tolerance in our communities. Peace.
Abdul Nishapuri: I have already named Mirza Sahib and his Khalifa who consider non-Ahmadis as Jahannumi. Also, I admitted wrongs of Shia clerics and condemned them. I did not hide behind “Mirza Sahiba’s statement against non-Ahmdis is taken out of context!” Here’s another few videos in which Ahmadi clerics are describing non-Ahmadis as Kafir:
Ahmadi mullah says non Ahmadi Mulims are kafir
https://www.facebook.com/photo.php?v=1383425531921258
Ahmadi mullah says Ahmadis should not pray for non Ahmadis as this puts their faith (emaan) in danger:
https://www.facebook.com/photo.php?v=1383386765258468
Ahmadis should strictly not marry non Ahmadis
https://www.facebook.com/photo.php?v=1383403181923493
Ahmadis who consider non-Ahmadis as Muslim are Khabees (evil)
https://www.facebook.com/photo.php?v=1383512448579233
Ahmadis must not pray behind non-Ahmadis
https://www.facebook.com/photo.php?v=1383446948585783
I am sorry I had to reproduce these vidoes and statements in response to the “Ahmadi clerics are better than Shia clerics” type attitude.
Kashif N Chaudhry: //”Shia clergy (across the board) consider Ahmadis not only Kafirs but some declare them Wajib ul Qatal.” is not equal to ” why dont you name ONE Shia cleric who considers Ahmadis Muslim?”// Prove me wrong by quoting ONE Mujtahid or Aalim. Till then, lets just keep doing what we do best – speak up for each other and be an example for elders.
Abdul Nishapuri: Till then, we must also refrain from holier than thou attitude. We are collecting deadbodies here and do not want any apologists of hate clerics to teach us universal human rights!
Kashif N Chaudhry: I am not hiding behind anything. Read the full passage and understand the context, as explained in video I posted. If Mirza Sahib believed Shias and Sunnis were Kafirs, why is there not ONE Ahmadi who considers Shias and Sunnis anything but Muslim? I mean, we die for all our beliefs, why would we hide this one?
Kashif N Chaudhry: I am proud of my leadership Abdul. Leadership that speaks for the rights of Shia Muslims, even though Shia clergy has always taken pride in their anti-Ahmadi stance and actions. This is moral integrity. You do not keep grudges but speak up for rights when humanity is suffering. I am very proud of such leadership and I pray I see the same attitudes amongst all Muslim clergy, amen.
Abdul Nishapuri: I am not proud of Shia clergy and I pity those who are proud of clergy of any kind! Particuarly that clergy which considers followers of other sects Kafir and Jahannumi!
Kashif N Chaudhry:^ I would curse such clergy equally. Thank God, I see tolerance and love in my clerics.
Abdul Nishapuri: I intend to publish this conversation to serve as useful guide for Ahmadi and Shia activists to refrain from confrontational and holier than thou attitude.
Conclusion
Persecuted communities must not engage in holier than thou type counterproductive arguments and allegations against each other. Finding faults with each other based on micro-analyses and isolated videos or statements won’t help anyone. Focus on the Deobandi Takfiri idoelogy of hate clerics of TTP-ASWJ if you want to live, else not a single Sunni Barelvi, Shia, Ahmadi, Christian or Hindu will survive in Pakistan.
——-
LUBP editor meets Ahmadiyya community’s spiritual leader – by Ali Taj https://lubpak.com/archives/264691
Shia scholar Ammar Nakshawani condemns persecution and massacres of Ahmadis, Christians and Sunni Sufis
https://lubpak.com/archives/334595
Mirza Sahab is a Prophet and what he says is above anything what anyone else says. All prophets have said stuff like this and you have to then blame all prophets. For instance in Quran Jews and Christians are termed as monkeys and pigs and much more. Then you must also condemn Quran and Holy Prophet for the same reason that you are condemning Mirza Sahab for.
However what Shias say and do against Ahmadis is not just a matter of beliefs as to who is right or wrong Muslim but they actually incite hatred against Ahmadis and commit blasphemy against the prophet, just like you have done in this article here. Ahmadis do neither against Shias. Also I have myself heard a Shia Scholar declaring anyone holding the beliefs that Ahmadis hold as wajab ul qatal. I have never heard any Ahmadi molvi declaring Shias as wajab ul qatl. You cannot equate the beliefs that Ahmadis hold which are completely non-violent against Shias or for that matter anyone else. You have just tried to create a false analogy between violent and hateful Shias and peaceful Ahmadis.
I can assure you your insulting Mirza Sahab like you have done here will not go very well with any Ahmadi and you have actually lost this opportunity to build bridges between Ahmadis and Shias. This once again proves that many Shias have no shame as to respect a prophet and yet they blame Ahmadis for not liking Shias. Completely unrealistic on the part of Shias.
Blasphemy? What blasphemy? You are acting as Mumtaz Qadri of Ahmadi community.
Has any Ahmadi declared any Shia wajab ul qatl like Shias do? Its Shia mullahs who act like Mumtaz Qadri.
Blasphemy is insulting a prophet. How is it OK for Shias to do?
Blasphemy against a false prophet who declares those who do not believe in his prophethood as infidels and Dozakhi? LOL
So why do you kill Christians in Pakistan for blasphemy? They don’t believe in Islam either. Why so much commotion by Irani Mullah Khomeini against Rushdie who is not a Muslim anymore? Why getting upset when Sunnis call Shias name for you are kafir and hold false beliefs according to them?
I am beginning to think Shias deserve what is befalling them as they insult both Sunnis and Ahmadis.
As a SUNNI HANAFI .if blasphemy is insulting Kafir mirza then i insult all kafir Mirzas.
If Ali is insulted then Shias get upset even though he is not even a prophet but when Shias blatantly commit blasphemy against a prophet as this guy has done here then its fine. Shias are the most bigoted people around. No wonder no one cares when Shias get killed in droves. If there was any chance of Shias/Ahmadi harmony then this article has ruined it.
@Malik
If Mirza as a Prophet considers non-Ahmadis infidels and hell-bound, then why do you complain when Ahlu Sunnah ulema declare Ahmadis non-Muslims?
Mirza calling non-Ahmadis Kafir is halaal, if we reply in the same coin, that is haraam?
Ahmadis have no problem with any one calling anyone non-Muslim including Ahmadis. Also all sects call each other kafir so do not pretend it’s a unique case with Ahmadis.
Problem is you a) use violence and unfair means against Ahmadis which is completely in violation of human rights, and b) you try to force Ahmadis to call themselves non-Muslim which is also against human rights.
So bottom line; call Ahmadis whatever you want but don’t use violence and do not prohibit Ahmadis from their freedom of beliefs.
@Malik
I have seen many Ahmadis who complain that Sunni or Shia clerics call them (Ahmadis) kafir. If their own Prophet Mirza Ghulam Ahmed calls non-Ahmadis kafir, then there is no basis for that complaint. Period.
This is just academic issue. Discussing anything academically is no problem as anything can be discussed in theory.
However what non-Ahmadis are doing to Ahmadis is criminal and terrorism. Big difference between the two.
If your Prophet calls non-Ahmedis Kaffir, that is an academic issue, if non-Ahmedis return the favour that is hate speech. Tum pio to halal?
قادیانی لوگ آزاد خیالی کے عنوانات سے شیعہ حضرات کو یہ کہہ رہے ہیں کہ جناب ہمیں بھی آپکی طرح کافر کہا جاتا ہے تو آپ ہمارا ساتھ دیجئے_ پہلی بات تو یہ ہے کہ قادیان ان لوگوں کو جو مرزا کو نبی نہیں مانتے، کافر کہتے ہیں، شدید نفرت رکھتے اور گالیاں بھی بکتے ہیں_ لہٰذا شیعہ حضرات کو اس معاملے میں کسی منافق کے جال میں نہیں آنا چاہئیے
jo shioon ko roz maar rahay hain wu shioon ku kiya samajhtay hain?
konsa firqa dosroon ko kafir nahin kehtai? upnay molvioon ka haal dekh lo;
fatwa, deobandi kafir, brelvi kafir, ahle hadith kafir, wahabi کافر
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=X01htQUvKcQ
Check deobandi founder beliefs;
Deobandi meaning of Khatam-e-Nabuwat
https://www.facebook.com/photo.php?v=10151239749237213
Let’s declare him and his students kafir too.
Do not quote our books out of context.
Calling anyone kafir and killing or persecuting anyone are two vastly different issues. One is an academic discussion the other is a serious violation of human tights. This is well established in international law and laws in all civilised countries. What kind of an idiot are you to not understand that? Call Ahmadis non-Muslim all you like, no Ahmadi will try to kill you for that unlike you barbarians who have no sense of civility.
Barbarians? That’s what your Mirza calls non-Ahmadis.
Anyone who kill innocent people are barbarians. Non-Ahmadis kill Ahmadis and non-Ahmadi alike but Ahmadis don’t. So who is a barbarian? kisyani billi khamba nochjay.
End of reasoning from your side, and I see you have gone to the usual cut and paste tactic of cowards when they lose battle of arguments. This is all you got. Great, my job is done now.
میری تمام حضرات سے گزارش ہے کہ قادیانی کے حوالے سے اپنی انسانی اور اسلامی ذمہ داری پر عمل کرتے ہوۓ لوگوں کو آگاہ کریں کہ یہ انگریزوں کا چھوڑا ہوا شوشہ مرزا غلام احمد کو آخری نبی نہ ماننے والوں کو بغیر کسی شرط کے بطور کلی کافر سمجھتا ہے، ان کیلئے اسلامی حقوق کا قائل نہیں ہے، یہاں تک کہ انکے جنازے کا بھی قائل نہیں ہے_ یہ لوگ بڑے آزاد خیال اور انصاف پسند بنتے ہیں مگر ان کے تمام خلیفاؤں نے انکو یہ واضح احکامات دیئے ہیں_ جن لوگوں نے مرزا غلام احمد کے بعد نبوت کا دعوا کیا ہے، انھیں بھی یہ کافر ہی سمجھتے ہیں، اسی طرح باقی عبادات و معاملات کا یہی حشر کرتے ہیں
kisiyani billi khamba nochay…after being beaten in arguments this change of tactic.
All sects call others kafir so what is your point?
However Sunnis and Shias are killing each other, so not only they consider each other kafir but wajib ul qatl too.
Sunni and Shia are united. Takfiris such as Mirza Ghulam Ahmed and Haq Nawaz Jhangvi are the root cause of hatrd and violence. This from a Shia website.
http://www.jafariyanews.com/articles/2k12/14aug_shia_leadership_pakistan.htm
LOL…right. Tell that to all the Sunni scholars who have declared Shias kafir and also consider Shias beliefs against the first three khulufa.
LOL…right tell that to all the Sunni scholars who have declared Shias kafir and also consider Shias beliefs against the first three khulufa.
Pleeeeeeez. Once again out of arguments and speaking gibberish. Go do some more cut and paste…like the coward you are.
Pleeeeeeez. Once again out of arguments and speaking gibberish. Go do some more cut and paste…like the coward that you are.
PS: How come Shias and Sunnis are fighting for nearly 1400 years if its only Malik Ishaq who is responsible? Malik Ishaq wasn’t even born then.
Jhangvi and Mirza are major contributors to the Takfeeri movement in Pakistan and India. In fact, Mirza is one of the pioneers of Takfeer of Muslims in this region.
Oye Muslim unity .bat meri sun unity rakhani hai muslims kay saat na ki kafirs kay saat like shias and ahmadiyas and mind it .and also remove ur name as muslim unity .
Kashif suffers from Shia Phobia. He is a Malik Ishaq of Ahmadis who thinks only Ahmadi clerics are good but Shia or Sunni clerics are bad. The only difference is that he lacks the power that is enjoyed by Deobandis of Pakistan. Good that you archived his hamaqatain here.
Shias have phobia against everyone; Sunnis and Ahmadis alike. Shias are equally vulgar against Sunnis and Ahmadis. I am beginning to think Shias deserve what befalls them.
So you think Shias deserve to be massacred? My guess was right. You and Kashif are closet Malik Ishaqs of Ahmadi community.
I think you Shias ask for it. That is what I meant. No one should be punished by humans even if they are as bigoted and hateful as Shias are. However Allah does bring punishment to those who are foul mouthed against prophets and that is Allah’s doing. Ahmadis have no part in it and neither do they condone any attack on Shias or anyone else. Divine punishment is a separate issue. I think Shias are being punished by Allah for their arrogance against the prophet.
I think Malik Ishaq is Allah’s azab on Shias for their foul mouth.
Just as Khatam-e-Nabuwat and LeJ are Allah’s azab on Ahmedis? You are not only a sectarian thug but also an idiot.
How many Ahmadis get killed every month? Few. How many Shias get killed every month in contrast? Numerous. This is one indication of what is a trial for momins (Ahmadis) and what is azab on Shias. Azab is always extreme.
Character of a group is also important to decide between trial and azab. No one has any good impression of Shias the world over, while Ahmadis are considered good people universally except among a few religious bigots. That is why when Shias get killed no one cares but when Ahmadis get killed there is unanimous support among the good people of the world. This is all Allah’s doing. He gives honour to whoever he wishes and disrespects whoever he wishes including those who oppose the prophet.
الٹا چور کوتوال کو ڈانٹے – قادیانیوں کی طرف سے تکفیر مسلمین
January 1, 2014 at 1:04pm
قادیان کی شریعت مسلمانوں پر کفر کا فتویٰ دیتی ہے، مرزا بشیر احمد ایم اے لکھتے ہیں:
“اب معاملہ صاف ہے، اگر نبی کریم کا انکار کفر ہے تو مسیح موعود (غلام احمد قادیانی) کا انکار بھی کفر ہونا چاہئے، کیونکہ مسیح موعود نبی کریم سے الگ کوئی چیز نہیں، بلکہ وہی ہے۔”
“اور اگر مسیح موعود کا منکر کافر نہیں تو نعوذ باللہ نبی کریم کا منکر بھی کافر نہیں۔ کیونکہ یہ کس طرح ممکن ہے کہ پہلی بعثت میں تو آپ کا انکار کفر ہو، مگر دوسری بعثت (قادیان کی بروزی بعثت ․․․ناقل) میں جس میں بقول مسیح موعود آپ کی روحانیت اقویٰ اور اکمل اور اشد ہے ․․․․․․ آپ کا انکار کفر نہ ہو۔”
(کلمة الفصل ص:۱۴۷)
دوسری جگہ لکھتے ہیں:
“ہر ایک ایسا شخص جو موسیٰ کو تو مانتا ہے مگر عیسیٰ کو نہیں مانتا، یا عیسیٰ کو مانتا ہے مگر محمد کو نہیں مانتا، یا محمد کو مانتا ہے پر مسیح موعود (مرزا غلام احمد) کو نہیں مانتا وہ نہ صرف کافر، بلکہ پکا کافر اور دائرہ اسلام سے خارج ہے۔” (ص:۱۱۰)
ان کے بڑے بھائی مرزا محمود احمد صاحب لکھتے ہیں:
“کل مسلمان جو حضرت مسیح موعود (مرزا غلام احمد) کی بیعت میں شامل نہیں ہوئے، خواہ انہوں نے حضرت مسیح موعود کا نام بھی نہیں سنا وہ کافر اور دائرہ اسلام سے خارج ہیں۔”
(آئینہ صداقت ص:۳۵)
ظاہر ہے کہ اگر قادیانی بھی اسی محمد رسول اللہ کا کلمہ پڑھتے ہیں جن کا کلمہ مسلمان پڑھتے ہیں تو قادیانی شریعت میں یہ “کفر کا فتویٰ” نازل نہ ہوتا، اس لئے مسلمانوں اور قادیانیوں کے کلمہ کے الفاظ گو ایک ہی ہیں مگر ان کے مفہوم میں زمین و آسمان اور کفر و ایمان کا فرق ہے۔
قادیانی حضرات مرزا غلام احمد کے علاوہ نبوت کے دعوے کرنے والوں کو بھی کافر سمجھتے ہیں، جیسے ایران میں بہا الله نامی جھوٹا نبی، یا دیگر، جبکہ اگر یہ نبوت کے سلسلے کا حضرت محمد مصطفیٰ(ص) پر خاتمہ تسلیم نہیں کرتے تو ان کے بعد باقی مدعیان نبوت کی تکفیر کیوں کرتے ہیں؟
مسلمان ہونے کے لئے کلمہ شہادت ہی شرط ہے، مگر اس کلمہ شہادت میں محمد رسول الله سے مراد وہی نبی(ص) ہیں جن پر قرآن نازل ہوا، قادیانی حضرات اس سے فائدہ نہیں اٹھاسکتے، کیونکہ وہ اس کلمے میں مرزا کو شامل سمجھتے ہیں نیز ان کے نزدیک کلمہ شہادت پڑھنے سے آدمی مسلمان نہیں ہوتا بلکہ مرزا صاحب کی پیروی کرنے اور ان کی بیعت کرنے میں شامل ہونے سے مسلمان ہوتا ہے۔ یہی وجہ ہے کہ وہ دنیا بھر کے مسلمانوں کو کافر کہتے ہیں، مرزا غلام احمد قادیانی کہتا ہے کہ خدا نے انہیں یہ الہام کیا ہے کہ:
“جو شخص تیری پیروی نہیں کرے گا اور تیری بیعت میں داخل نہیں ہوگا اور تیرا مخالف رہے گا وہ خدا اور رسول کی نافرمانی کرنے والا اور جہنمی ہے۔” (تذکرہ طبع جدید ص:۳۳۶)
نیز مرزا قادیانی اپنا یہ الہام بھی سناتا ہے کہ:
“خدا تعالیٰ نے میرے پر ظاہر کیا ہے کہ ہر ایک شخص جس کو میری دعوت پہنچی اور اس نے مجھے قبول نہیں کیا وہ مسلمان نہیں ہے۔” (مرزا کا خط بنام ڈاکٹر عبدالحکیم)
مرزا صاحب کے بڑے صاحب زادے مرزا محمود احمد صاحب لکھتے ہیں:
“کل مسلمان جو حضرت مسیح موعود کی بیعت میں شامل نہیں ہوئے خواہ انہوں نے حضرت مسیح موعود کا نام بھی نہیں سنا وہ کافر اور دائرہ اسلام سے خارج ہیں۔” (آئینہ صداقت ص:۳۵)
برِّصغیر پاک و ہند میں حضورِ اکرم صلی اللہ علیہ والہ وسلم کے خاتم النبیین ہونے سے انکار اور عقیدۂ ختم نبوة سے انحراف کا فتنہ پہلی بار اس وقت منظرِ عام پر آیا جب مولوی احسن نانوتوی (م ۔ 1312ھ/1894ء) نے قیام بریلی کے دوران جب کہ وہ حکومتِ برطانیہ کی ملازمت میں تھے (1851ء تا 1860ء) اثر ابن عباس کی بنیاد پر اپنے اس عقیدے کا واضح تحریری اعلان شائع کیاکہ اللہ کے حبیبِ لبیب صلی اللہ علیہ والہ وسلم کے علاوہ بھی ہر طبقہٴ زمین میں ایک خاتم النبیین اور ”محمد“ موجود ہیں۔ امام الاتقیا علامہ نقی علی خاں علیہ الرحمة (والدِ ماجد امام احمدرضا)نے احسن نانا توی کی سخت گرفت فرمائی ایسے عقیدے والے کو گمراہ اور بددین قرار دیا۔ علماے بریلی، بدایوں، رامپور بشمول علامہ مفتی ارشاد حسین فاروقی رامپوری علیہ الرحمة استادِ مولوی احسن ناناتوی نے علامہ نقی علی خاں علیہ الرحمة کے فتوے کی تائید کی جب کہ احسن ناناتوی کے قریبی رشتہ دار مولوی قاسم ناناتوی صاحب نے جو مدرسۂ دیوبندکی انتظامیہ میں غلبے کے بعد اس مدرسے کے مہتمم ہوئے، ان کی حمایت میں ”تحذیر الناس“ نامی کتاب تحریر کی اور وہ اپنے عزیز کی حمایت میں اس قدر بڑھ گئے کہ انہوں نے یہاں تک لکھ دیا:
”سوعوام کے خیال میں رسول اللہ صلعم کاخاتم ہونا بایں معنیٰ ہے کہ آپ کا زمانہ انبیاے سابق کے زمانے کے بعد اور آپ سب میں آخری نبی ہیں ، مگر اہلِ فہم پر روشن ہوگا کہ تقدم یا تاخرِزمانہ میں بالذّات کچھ فضیلت نہیں، پھر مقامِ مدح میں ولکن رسول اللہ وخاتم النبیین اس صورت میں کیونکر صحیح ہوسکتا ہے۔ “
پھر دوسری جگہ تحریر کیاہے: ”اگر بالفرض بعدِ زمانہٴ نبوی بھی کوئی نبی پیدا ہو تو پھر بھی خاتمیتِ محمد ی میں کچھ فرق نہ آئے گا چہ جا ئے کہ آپ کے معاصر کسی اور زمین یافرض کیجیے اسی زمین میں کوئی اور نبی تجویز کیا جائے۔“
یہی وہ دل آزار تشریح ہے جس نے انیسویں صدی کی آخری دہائی میں ملّتِ اسلامیانِ ہند میں تفرقہ ڈالا اور ایک نئے فرقے کو جنم دیا۔ آگے چل کر تحذیر الناس کی اسی عبارت نے مرزاغلام قادیانی کذاب کی جھوٹی نبوت کے دعوے کے لیے مضبوط بنیاد فراہم کی جس کو آج تک قادیانی بہ طورِ دلیل پیش کرتے چلے آئے ہیں ، حتیٰ کہ 7/ستمبر 1974ء کو جب پاکستان کی قومی اسمبلی میں قادیانیوں کو غیر مسلم قرار دینے کے لیے دلائل دیے جارہے تھے، تو قادیانیوں کے نمائندہ مرزاطاہر نے اپنے مسلمان ہونے کے دفاع میں مولوی قاسم ناناتوی صاحب کی ان عبارات کو بہ طورِ دلیل پیش کیا جس کا جواب مفتی محمود صاحب سمیت کسی دیوبندی عالم سے نہ بن پڑا۔ البتہ مولاناشاہ احمد نورانی اور علامہ عبدالمصطفیٰ الازھری علیہما الرحمة نے گرج دار آواز میں کہا کہ ہم اس عبارت کے محرراور اس کے قائل دونوں کو ایسا ہی کافرسمجھتے ہیں جیسا قادیانیوں کو اور یہ کہ اس سلسلے میں امام احمد رضا علیہ الرحمة کا مرتّبہ اور علماے حرمین شریفین کا تصدیق شدہ فتویٰ ”حسام الحرمین“ اسمبلی میں پیش کیا جاچکا ہے۔
اس مضمون سے مربوط کچھ عکس دیکھنے کیلئے اس لنک پر نظر کیجئے:-http://www.ahmadiyya.org/qadis/takfir1.htm#u1
As an Ahmadiyya Muslim, I apologize for brother Kashif’s holier than thou attitude against Shia brothers. Please delete this post if possible.
Kashif, like everyone else, has a right to his opinion as long as he does not incite crime or violence unlike how Shia mullahs do against Ahmadis. Shia mullahs are no better than Malik Ishaq when it comes to Khatm-e-Nabuwat terrorism.
Mirza sala to Dajjal ka beta hai .aur khomeni sala doosra beta Dajjal ka.
This blasphemous article by foul moth Shia Nishapuri is an attempt to black mail Ahmadis into submission. This will never happen.
ham nain dehshatgard Shia mullaoon ku bardasht kiya hai, tum kis khet ki moli hu.
I am not a bigoted moron like you, or I would have joined the bandwagon of takfir of Ahmedis and said that they deserve their persecution.
However, there certainly are a few things you need to get in your mind if you have one.
First of all, if what Abdul Nishapuri has written is blasphemy, as you have oafishly concluded, then the VERY EXISTENCE of Ahmedi faith is a blasphemy. Do not have double standards. He has ONLY asked you to condemn Mirza’s takfir of other Muslims. If Mirza is right in calling ME kafir, then I have a right to call Mirza, you and all other Ahmedis kafir. Either both of us can do it, or NEITHER. Do not have double standards.
If Malik Ishaq is Allah’s azaab on Shias, then 2nd amendment is also Allah’s azaab on Ahmedis. The attack on Ahmedi mosque was also Allah’s azaab. The hatred and discriminate they are subjected to is also Allah’s azaab!
And Ahmedis are not killed in scores because they HIDE their identity – so dont give us the bullshit that o so many Shias are killed and so few Ahmedis. And by the way, if only a few Ahmedis are killed, why the hell do you people cry being oppressed?
I for one still condemn those who call Ahmedis kafir or discriminate against them. I consider them oppressed, and I hope they can one day denounce Mirza’s statement and stop hiding behind excuses.
No one has problem with you calling anyone anything. Get this through your thick bigoted Shia mind.
However you Shias are terrorists and/or support terrorism. Your mullahs are calling Ahmadis wajab ul qatl and Shias are part and parcel of terrorist movement of Khatm e Nabuwat from day one. On top you Shias utter blasphemous words.
That is why Malik Ishaq is Allah’s reward to hateful, bigoted and blasphemous Shias.
“I am not a bigoted moron like you,”
A Shia and not a bigot? What an oxymoron. Shia religion is based on taqiyya.
You are stupid to believe that any Ahmadi would renounce the prophet’s words, least of all because there is nothing wrong with those words. Quran calls Christians and Jews as Pigs and Monkeys. Do you you’re your bigoted Shia Nishapuri condemn Holy Prophet and Quran on the same grounds of inciting hatred? I thought not, as the two of you are typical bigoted Shia hypocrites.
You are stupid to believe that any Ahmadi would renounce the prophet’s words, least of all because there is nothing wrong with those words. Quran calls Christians and Jews as Pigs and Monkeys. Do you you’re your bigoted Shia Nishapuri condemn Holy Prophet and Quran on the same grounds of inciting hatred? I thought not, as the two of you are typical bigoted Shia hypocrites. – See more at: https://lubp.net/archives/305259/comment-page-1#comment-916231
“2nd amendment is also Allah’s azaab on Ahmedis. ”
I have explained the difference between trial and azab elsewhere here. Read up.
As for second amendment, through it all 72 sects of you very stupidly admitted that all 72 sects are together and only one sect is different, thus according to hadith of 72/73 sects, which says 72 false sects would be on one side and one true sect on the other, you have yourself put a stamp on your falsehood. Idiots.
Hum Hanfiu nay to aaj tak kis b firqay ko nahi choda hai to tum Shia.ahmadiya .berevlvi .ahle hadees koun say khet ki mouli ho.
shahid who says u that ahmadiyais and shias r muslims.they r only kafirs .once again KAFIRS.
MUSLIM UNITY r u mad.u know ALLAMA HAQ NAWAZ JHANGVI (R A) is only a great personality who show u the hidden KAFIRS LIKE SHIAS AND QADIYANIES.
میرے خیال میں یہ جو تهیوکریٹک بحث ہے کہ کون کافر اور کون مسلمان اور کون جہنمی یا کون جنتی ہے یہ ہر مسلک کے اندر جاری ہے اور جاری رہے گی علم کلام اور تهیالوجی ان سے بحث کرتے رہے ہیں اور کرتے رہیں گے
ہمارے پاس اصل میں معاملہ تهیالوجیکل اور علم کلام سے ہٹ کر اور کہیں زیادہ غور کرنے کا ہے
پہلے تو آپ سب دوستوں کو یہ دهیان رکهنا چاہئیے کہ مسلم علم کلام اور تهیالوجی میں تکفیریت اورخارجیت کو بالاتفاق سب نے ایک فتنہ اور ناقابل برداشت رویہ و زہنیت قرار دیا ہے
تکفیریت یا خارجیت سے مراد کسی کو محض کافر قرار دینا یا اس کو جہنمی بتلانا کسی بهی مسلک یا فرقے کے جید علما نے قرار نہیں دیا
کیونکہ کسی فرد یا گروہ پر کفر /گمراہی/اس کے ناری یا نوری ہونے کا خارجیت اطلاق تو کیا سنی کیا شیعہ کیا معتزلہ اور کیا اشاعرہ و ماتریدیہ سبهی کرتے رہے اور کرتے آرہے پیں
اور تکفیریت سے مراد یہ ہے کہ کسی فرد یا گروہ مسلمان کو آپ کافر قرار دو اس بنیاد پر اس کے قتل کو فرض ٹهہرا لو اس مکتبہ فکر کو جڑ سے اکهاڑنے پر سب کی بقا کا دارومدار ہے
پاکستان میں شیعہ ،سنی احمدی ہندو کرسچن سمیت معاشرے کی اکثریت دیوبندیتکفیری خارجیت پر مبنی دهشت گردی کا شکار ہیں اور ان کی بقق کو خطرات کا سامنا ہے تو انہیں اس دہشت گرد فسطائیت کے خلاف اتحاد بنانے کی اشد ضرورت ہے
How is this going to happen when these Shia bigots are being disrespectful towards a Prophet?
These hateful Shias do not need support of Ahmadis neither would any Ahmadi be supporting them after their vulgar attitude. They deserve Malik Ishaq due to their bigotry.
This Nishapuri blasphemer is typical taqiya bigot Shia. He has shown his true colours here.
This proves Malik Ishaq is Allah’s azab on Shias for their foul mouth and blasphemy.
I do not know who the Kashifs above are. I am the Kashif N Chaudhry in the conversation posted in this blog. I will respond to this through a formal piece on a Huff Post blog or elsewhere as soon as I find time.
Briefly, I wish to comment on a few things:
1) The atrocities meted out on our Shia Muslim brothers i.e. #ShiaGenocide is highly condemnable and unfortunate. I see a comment saying, “this is why such atrocities and Azab befall you.” No bigotry is big enough to justify inhumanity. Let us not make such comments please. Prophet Muhammad (pbuh)’s example is a guiding light for us. Indeed Shia clerics have been at the forefront of the anti-Ahmadiyya movement and still endorse the persecution of Ahmadi Muslims in Pakistan. However, as true Ahmadi Muslims, we must follow the example of Prophet Muhammad (pbuh), the Promised Messiah and our Khalifa. We must speak against all persecution and uphold all human rights anywhere and everywhere in the world unconditionally, even for those who believe we should be killed or those who endorse our persecution under law.
2) You left three links to “Ahmadi Mullahs calling others Kafir.” The first link clearly says “Kafirs of Ahmadiyyat,” and the second two links take us to youtube pages of an anti-Ahmadi activist. Unfortunately, this is exactly what those who consider Shias Kafir do. They quote some Sunni Alims alleging that Shia Ulema abuse the first three Caliphs and Hadhrat Ayesha (ra). So my question remains, name ONE Ahmadi Muslim who refuses to call a Shia a Muslim or calls a Shia a Kafir. And name ONE Shia cleric who considers Ahmadis Muslim or speaks for their rights.
3) You need not take up a defensive & confrontational posture. I will respond to you formally soon. But, in the meantime, I am just letting you know that my activism for Shia Muslims will continue but my condemnation of Shia clergy for their bigotry will also not stop. My piece will clarify why.
4) You try hard to equate the Promised Messiah (as), who preached love and peace for all peoples with the types of Allama Shaheedi who take pride in persecuting Ahmadi Muslims and calling for their death. I have said this time and again, you or anyone else is free to consider Ahmadis non-Muslim. The issue is with legislation and promulgation of discriminatory laws that jail me for my free profession. I criticize Shia clergy for this very reason – for endorsing persecution and spreading hatred and inciting violence. Not even a Shia Mujtahid has ever raised voice against what their clerics have done to Ahmadi Muslims in Pakistan (and Bahais in Iran). I’ll be accused of digressing so I will stick to Ahmadi Muslims and respond as soon as I am free. Thanks.
Love and Peace,
Kashif
KashifMD.com
Dear Kashif N. Chaudhary,
I come from a mixed background and have relatives who are Sunni (mostly Barelvi with some new converts to Deobandi), Shia and Ahmadi. I myself subscribe to Hanafi Barelvi views but am not a blind follower and appreciate the good points about Ahmadis and Shias. I sympathize with #AhmadiPersecution and #ShiaGenocide because of reading LUBP.
With due respect, I have to agree with Nishapuri here. This debate is pointless. To expect Mullahs and clerics to highlight progressive thought is naive at best. It does not matter to me whether Mullahs or clerics are Shia, Sunni or Ahmadi. Everyone’s books and speeches views the other as “Kafir”. It is pathetic and I don’t agree with it.
Just as you are correct in pointing out that shia mullahs do Takfeer of Ahmadis, can the same not be said about Mirza Sahib, the spiritual leader of the Ahmadis who has declared all those outside his belief system as “kafir”
What is the difference?
You are making the common mistake of thinking that your own progressive viewpoints and beliefs are a 100% representation of Mirza Sahib’s teachings as opposed to your own positive evolution in a secular society. I do not agree with every thing that is the current position of Maulana Sarwat Ejaz Qadri or Maulana Tahir ul Qadri or the writings of Ahmed Raza Bareilly. It is obvious from the harsh criticism of LUBP of Shia clerics that Nishapuri is NOT a blind fellower of Shia mullahs. Quite the contrary actually.
Have you read how strongly Nishapuri and LUBP have critisized Shia Mullahs especially on their stance on Ahmadis https://lubp.net/archives/tag/criticism-of-shia-clerics
In your upcoming article, will you be as critical of Mirza Sahib’s unfortunate statements of Takfeer?
So here we are, Sunni, Ahmadi, Shia – all muslims in my opinion, wasting time in expecting the clerics and leaders of any sect to show enlightenment.
You are correct in condemning a Shia mullah for his bigotry against Ahmadis but then Nishapuri has a point about being critical of that particular part of Mirza Sahib’s teachings that declare all others as Kafir.
What is to be gained from this game of whose Mullah/leader is better?
Nothing.
Sorry if I have offended you or Nishapuri
I am shocked at some of the other comments in this thread. Shias and Ahmadis and Sunni Barelwis all being killed by extremist Deobandi militant group Sipah Sahaba do NOT deserve this.
Anyone who recites Shahada is Muslim. Actually anyone who calls himself muslim is muslim. We are no one to judge the muslimness of others
2nd Amendment is wrong.
Zia ul Haq PCOs are wrong.
Mirza Sahib’s statements to declare anyone a Kafir who does not agree with him is wrong but I will not be disrespectful of his other teachings and learn from them.
I condemn Amin Shaheedi’s statements on Ahmadi but if will still tune into his anti-Taliban statements.
Just because some mullahs and clerics are engaging in Kafir baiting, I request others to step away from this dangerous edge and concentrate on common grounds.
@Kashif Chaudhry
Why is takfeer of non-Ahmadis by Mirza Ghulam Ahmed good but takfeer of Ahmadis by Sunni and some Shia Ulema bad?
Why do Ahmadis condemn and protest their tafkeer by non-Ahmadi Ulema when Ahmadi Prophet himself did takfeer of all non-Ahmadi Muslims?
You seem to be in a denialist and apolgist mode on this specific issue. Very sorry to see that.
By this blasphemy against the Promised Messiah (as), Shias have confirmed that they are true Kafirs. They are the same tribe of Ibn-e-Saba that regularly commits blasphemy against the three Rightly Guided Caliphs (ra) and Hazrat Muawiya (ra). As an Ahmadiyya Muslim, I declare these Majoosis and Sabais Kafirs or Kafirs of Ahmadiyyat as brother Kashif eloquently described.
Because Shia bigots have nothing to blame on Ahmadis, they took excerpts from deobandi Mullah’s and posted them here. My Questions to ths Bigots Nishapuri and Taj, have any Ahmadi Cleric ever used these statements to declare others “KAFIR”???? I will work with brothers Kashif Chaudhry, Tahir Imran Mian and Yasser Hamdani to expose Shia terrorists. You reap what you sow.
I have spent the last 73 years of my life in serving the Ahmadiyya Jamaat and I hope young Ahmadis will listen to my advice. You are barking at the wrong tree here. The provocative and arrogant manner of some young Ahmadis on this post makes me sad. This website LUPB has published more articles in our support than any other non-Ahmadiyya website. By blaming and insulting these people, are you serving the Jamaat?
Afsos, sad hazaar afsos
If any Ahmadi is insulting a non-Ahmadi that is condemnable. However, the position the website towards the Ahmadis is highly bigoted…. No sane person will disagree….
THE SITE IS ESSENTIALLY SAYING CONDEMN YOUR FOUNDER, IT’S ALL GOOD…..OTHEWISE YOU’RE S BIGOT
Now that’s bigoted. its what the EDL do in the UK. They call Muslims bigots for not condemning Hadhrat Muhammad (sa)
However, I have yet to see insults. Moreover, Ahmadis do not need any special treatment from any site. Is Allah not sufficient?
My request to LUBP. These four people do not represent the Ahmadiyya community:
– Kashif Chaudhry
– Omaid Malik
– Yasser Latif Hamdani
– Tahir Imran Mian
The first two are naive, can’t tell their friends from foes while the latter two are outrightliy dishonest, known for flattering urban elite types to earn a few dollars.
Kashif and Omaid have been attacking the clergy of Shia and Sunni while glamorising Ahmadi mullahs as if they are all angels. This attitude is counter productive and doesn’t help any persecuted community. Nobody has asked them to raise voice for Shias and if they insist on Ahmadi mullahs are good, Shia mullahs are bad, their support is meaningless.
Persecuted communities need to work together instead of picking on each other.
First and foremost, Shias need to get rid of Ejaz Haider and Nasim Zehra types and Ahamdis need to get rid of the four thugs (and types) listed above.
This is wildely incorrect and a blatant lie. I read Kashifs Twitter feed regularly and can confirm that he speaks out against Shia Genocide and works to defend the rights of all.
This seems to be an attempt to delude the layman.
@Omaid, your responses are very disturbing and not at all reflective of my Ahmadi relatives and friends. We have had many discussions on the teachings of Mirza Sahib and I have not seen anyone denying the “Jahanumi” statements. It does not matter whether Ahmadi Jamaat clerics use these statements made by senior leader of Ahmadi muslims.
I condemn those written statements as much as I condemn Amin Shaheedi’s statements against my Ahmadi muslim brothers.
Why are you ducking the issue? Do these written statements exist or not?
We have now come to the Age of Utter Foolishness. Sipah Sahaba is killing Shias, Ahmadis and everyone else. But Shia Mullahs are doing Takfir of Ahmadis and Ahmadi leader Mirza Sahib does Takfeer of everyone else in his writting.
Good save us all.
So here is an “Ahmadi” [or shall we say pretend Ahmadi] who condemns his own holy founder Mirza Ghulam Ahmad (as)!!!
Not everyone falls for it.
For Ahmadis anybody who doesn’t believe in Mirza Ghulam Ahmed’s mehdihood is a kafir or non-believer.
At least one third of my family is Ahmadi, I know them how they perceive non-ahmedis. Mirza sb and his son Mirza Mehmud who was also second Khalifa of the jamaat have clearly described those who don’t believe in Mirza sab as Kafir. They are quite rigid people. Not every Deobandi is tableghi but every Ahmedi is in their own way.
Is there such a thing as “good” takfeer and “bad” takfeer
Recently, some human rights activists start off by sympathizing with target killed communities (such as Sunni Barelvis, Shias, Ahmadis, Christians) but in the next breath try to rationalize and justify their plight. For example, we have noticed how a few activists have adopted a “blaming-the-victim” approach with its disturbing implication that:
“since your clerics did our takfeer or since your clerics are silent on our plight, therefore you deserve the plight that has befallen on you. You reap what you sow” Some even go to the extent of our clerics are good, our sect is good but your clerics are bad, your sect is intolerant discourse etc. And this happens while ALL the aggrieved communities are collecting and burying deadbodies on a daily basis.
In particular, more than 1200 Shia Muslims, dozens of Sunni Barelvis and Christians and a few Ahmadis have been killed in the last one year (2013) in Pakistan.
When targeted and persecuted religious communities engage in baiting one another and hurling clerical statements for the sole purpose of embarrassing the other, we have reached a disturbing point.
Specifically Ahmadis, Shias and Sunni Barelvis are relentlessly being targeted by militant Deobandis who have the backing of the Pakistani State and establishment.
Instead of concentrating on strengthening the effective coalition that have emerged, it is distressing to see naïve activists of these communities engaging in baiting and confronting each other, in a holier than thou manner, instead of realizing the existential danger they face from Deobandi militants.
Human rights cannot be selective nor conditional. One cannot strive for the human rights of Sunni Barelvis and ignore the persecution faced by the Ahmadis. One cannot oppose the apostasy of Shias but deny the same right to Ahmadis.
Similarly, one cannot selectively condemn Sunni Barelvi and Shia clerics for their bigotry while ducking the equally bigoted statements by Ahmadi clerics against all non-Ahmadis including Shias and Sunnis.
The act of Takfeer, i.e., othering, effectively is a death sentence in the presence of armed Deobandi militant groups like Sipah Sahaba and Taliban.
Common sense would dictate that human rights activists move past the discourse of clerics that emphasizes apostasy and concentrate on uniting their efforts against State sponsored violence that affects them all.
I have seen that LUBP website has clearly criticized Zulfikar Ali Bhutto for being at the helm when the elected parliament of PPP, NAP and others passed the atrocious 2nd Amendment that apostasized the Ahmadiyya Muslims in Pakistan. LUBP has criticized PPP leaders and activists like Faisal Raza Abidi on this issue – even if it promotes their excellent and clear anti-Taliban stance. They have criticized Shia clerics like Amin Shaheedi and others for their irrelevant and disappointing statements against Mirza Ghulam Ahmed. It is easy to criticize Sunni Barelvi and Shia clerics and PPP political leaders as there was no fallout from such activities in Pakistan. But when LUBP criticized Tahir Ashrafi, they were threatened with Defamation as reported by this ET news item.
LUBP has been the loudest in criticized powerful Pro Taliban media and clerics like Hamid Mir and Tahir Ashrafi that are part of the powerful Deobandi TTP-ASWJ establishment. And for this, they get threatened and harassed on social media and even in newspapers.
Maulana Tahir Ashrafi used the vilest language against Ahmadiyya Muslims and Nishapuri was the one who led a counter charge against Ashrafi. Consequently, he received substantive threats to his life by Deobandi terrorists.
In a 2010 recording, a pro-Taliban apologist and the powerful media ally of ASWJ, Hamid Mir was uttering the foulest language against Ahmadi Muslims as he spurred on the “Punjabi Taliban” to murder a former Taliban handler, Col. Imam. Here again, it was LUBP that stood in the line of fire.
I respectfully ask Ahmadi activist such as Kashif Chaudhary if he will devote the proportional column space and social media effort to take on these two Pro-Taliban hate mongers as he does in criticizing ALL Shia clerics across the board?
Will he also highlight and condemn the “Jahanumi” doctrine against Non-Ahmadi muslims that are present in the codified writings of Mirza Sahib.
Sadly, when LUBP was being critical of Maulana Tahir Ashrafi, Pakistan’s liberal champions were either silent or actively collaborating with Tahir Ashrafi!
Some of these same “liberal” champions are at the forefront in creating this rift between the largely secular Shia, Sunni Barelvi, Christian and Ahmadi activists who are emerging on common agendas.
For instance, Shias and Ahmadis are sometimes blamed for their fate because their forefathers opted to support Pakistan. At other times, Shias and Ahmadis are blamed for being misogynists. As per these warped justifications, it would seem that Sipah-e-Sahaba that is killing both Shias and Ahmadis is not a militant Takfeeri ISI-backed Deobandi organization but a Nationalist Women’s Liberation movement.
At other times, Shias are collectively being blamed for their own fate because a few Shia clerics participated in the anti-Ahmadi movement in 1974 – nearly a decade before General Zia ul Haq established Sipah-e-Sahaba in Jhang!
These are the traps that Ahmadi and Shia activists must avoid. At LUBP, we have been not been selective in our criticism. We feel that both Shia and Ahmadi clerics and leaders must be criticized for their Takfeer against the other. However, we can only go so far as criticize. We are not responsible for the insensitive and bigoted remarks of Sunnis, Shias and Ahmadis against one another. This bigotry exists and only by forming a united platform can we combat such bigotry effectively.
That being said, no Shia militant has targeted Ahmadi lives or property. Ditto for Ahmadis as no Ahmadi has been found culpable in the ongoing Shia Genocide in Pakistan. On the contrary, in the aftermath of the Abbas Town blast, a Shia organization was providing relief services to the families of an Ahmadi victim and also a Sunni victim who were affected during this blast whose prime targets were Shias.
Let us concentrate on those who have been empowered by the State to wipe us all out. The holier than thou type activists who blame the persecuted community are nobody’s friends.
I have often seen Kashif Chaudhry, Omaid Malik and Tahir Imran Mian, they continuously attack Shia community, celebrate their genocide by stating that as you sow, so shall you reap. Kashif and Omaid Malik are Deoband-Salafi by heart, but Ahmadi in appearance. Perhaps a plant just like ISI’s Yasser Latif Hamdani and Tahir Mian to divide Ahmadis from Sunni Barelvis and Shias?
A few weeks ago, I cam across this interesting thread on facebook which shows that Kashif Chaudhry Jhangvi is a serial abuser of Shias.
Ale Natiq
As I am being blamed of being selective on criticizing bigots, here is my blog I wrote few months back instead of pushing the issue under the carpet. I have been more vocal on rights of #AhmadiMuslims than most Ahmadis I know, very disappointed at the reaction.
https://lubp.net/archives/291861
Allama Shehenshah Naqvi’s passing remarks on Ahmadi Muslims are uncalled for
lubpak.com
In the aftermath of Rawalpindi Ashura incident, a video has surfaced on social media where Allama Shehenshah Naqvi is commenting on the…
Like · · Share · January 26 at 10:06pm near London ·
Ali Abbas Taj, Asif Zaidi, Naeem Shamim and 30 others like this.
Kashif N Chaudhry Ale Natiq I have always commended you for your stand for the rights of all peoples. Let me clarify. You claim in your blog that the views of Allama Naqvi are not that of the “wider Shia community.” Name ONE cleric from this “wider Shia community” that has condemned the anti-Ahmadi laws and spoken for the rights of the Ahmadi Muslims? Is this not a fair question to ask? We need not be defensive when posed such questions but admit the bitter truth that the leadership of this “wider community” is still bigoted. See Ameen Shaheedi for an example. He calls Ahmadis Wajib ul Qatal. Here you are, trying to convince me that Shias had no role in 1974 and here he is trying to take 100% credit for it. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zZtDQrbR-OI
You say Shia clerics and Sunni clerics are not the same. For me, they are. And I am just being honest. Pray tell me how is Ameen Shaheedi different from Tahir Ashrafi? Both consider me Wajib ul Qatal and both endorse the anti-Ahmadi laws. How is Shaheedi a lesser bigot that Ashrafi?
And if you still want to defend Shia clerics, the best way to do is to produce ONE such cleric from the “wider community” that speaks against anti-Ahmadi laws? The truth is that Allama Naqvi is not an exception but the rule amongst Shia Mullahs.
Keep doing the good work that you are doing. I pray you are able to educate Shia Mullahs and have them become true Hussainis, amen.
And if you still disagree with me my dear friend, then we shall agree to disagree and move on with our much greater task of speaking for #ShiaGenocide and #AhmadiApartheid. Love you!
Shia Cleric Spreads Sectarian Hatred and Then Decries The Same
Shia Cleric Muhammad Amin Shaheed spreads hate and incites violence against Ahmadi Muslims on National TV (3 prominent Ahmadi leaders were gunned down follow…
January 27 at 1:57am · Edited · Like · 5
Kashif N Chaudhry Allama Mirza Yousaf Hussain (https://www.facebook.com/AllamaMirzaYousufHussain) , who is the Centeral leader All Pakistan Shia Action Committee, Imam-e-Jumma Jama Masjid Noor-e-Iman, Member MWM Shura-e-Nazarat is quoted to have said:
“The Qadiyanis are not Muslims. They are apostates. It is not that some of them are apostates but every one of them is consciously an apostate so that he may conspire against Islam. Their very existence, their perception and practices bear an alarming message for the Muslims. Under the guise of Islam they are busy in sabotaging Islam’s fixed laws and holy practices. A common man cannot estimate their evil plans. It is a running sore in Islam’s body. To get rid of it is the responsibility of each and every Muslim.”
Allama Arif Al Husseini, Allama Hassan, Sheikh Mohsin Ali Najafi, Agha Murtaza Poya, Sheikh Muzaffar Hussain Jaffrey, Sheikh Ali Walayety.
“We consider the ‘Mirzaiyyat’ the agents of the Jews and the Christians. The Mirzaiyyat is not a religious but a political group. Under the guise of Islam, this group is serving imperialistic powers. It has its station in Tel Aviv while no Muslim country has any diplomatic relations with Israel. To combat the Mirzaiyyat and the Behaiyat we will participate in every plan set by the working committee of ‘Khatm-e-Nubuwwat’. We condemn the patrons of Mirzaiyyat and Behaiyat – American, Russian and Jewish imperialism – who conspire against Islam through their agents and sabotage the global peace. A vigilant eye should be kept on the activities of such an element. People should also unveil their evil plans.”
In my limited research using Google, I have found a lot of anti-Ahmadi material from leading Shia clergy. So please do not make it seem that bigotry against Ahmadis is a rare exception. It is a rule amongst Shia clergy and I await the day when a Shia Aalim will stand up and break this rule and become an exception by speaking in favor of Ahmadi rights and against the anti-Ahmadi laws they express such pride in.
Continue the good work amongst your community. There is a LOT to do!!
Allama Mirza Yousuf Hussain
Born in a Noble Family Of Skardu/Baltistan. His Father Allama Shaikh Ghulam Muhhamad Al-Gharvi Was the 1st Symbolic Religious and Political leader Of that Region. Who Had been working with Quaid-e-Millat e Jafaria Allama mufti Jafar.and later work with Quaid Shaheed Allama Arif Hussain Al-Hussaini….
Public Figure: 918 like this
January 27 at 3:17am · Like · 2
Kashif N Chaudhry If you think I should not speak against such Shia clergy dear Ale, thats not going to happen my friend. From where I stand, these clerics look equally venomous and ugly to me. I am sure you agree with me.
And if you think you are making them look better by claiming that these statements are “out of fear and to appease the Takfeeris,” then let me break it to you that you are only making them look worse. What you are saying is that they are not just Takfeeris, but that they are such Takfeeris that have zero moral integrity and are cowards of the highest order, endorsing persecution and killing just because they chickened out. So, dont use that excuse and just continue to condemn them unconditionally. No buts and ifs. Period!
And for the last time, take this positively my dear friend. Take this as an opportunity to reform your leadership and teach them the meaning of Hussainiat. I hope Shia aalims learn from you and from Ali Abbas and from all the amazing Shia activists I know I love you all and am with you all the way. We have a common enemy and that is bigotry. Lets keep fighting without picking and choosing bigots. Good night!
January 27 at 3:32am · Like · 4
Ale Natiq I fail to understand why you continue to accuse me of defending bigotry when for all those years I have been speaking for Ahmadis. I have used all possible platforms, have received worst form of abuse and threats for doing so and yet have not stopped. Roshni’s website was the only Urdu portal in Pakistan which published pro Ahmadi material and was banned consequently by PTA permanently. On Roshni FB, we regularly publish content in support of Ahmadis and on purpose always use the term Ahmedi Muslims trying to change the discourse. Its disappointing you end up being accused like this after doing all this. You accuse me of defending bigotry of Shia clerics when it is myself who has written about it (above blog only one of them) after finding it out instead of pushing it under the carpet. I fail to understand your expectations and what makes you think I want to defend them.
I can only be held accountable for what I say or do. I am not responsible for what one Shaheedi says. I will speak about it, I will raise my voice if I find it objectionable (which I have always done) and that is all I can do. You can not accuse me for what another person has done. You continue to bring it down to clerics when I have been saying that influence of Takfiri clerics is on decline and a lot of activists like myself and yourself enjoy a lot of influence. I have a few thousand Shia followers on social media and only a few exceptions will be bigoted towards Ahmadis.
My objection is to this usual narrative which most Ahmadis have subscribed to including yourself, which I have observed recently. On every incident of Shia killings they will come up with all kinds of excuses and stories telling us “as you sow so shall you reap”, “you did this and that to Ahmadis and now its your turn” – basically telling the Shias that you deserved it. This is absolutely ridiculous. The Shia being killed today were not even born in 1974 when Ahmadis were declared non Muslims. Why should they suffer? Is it alright for someone to be killed because (let’s say) one of the clerics from his sect supported anti Ahmadi laws? Why should ordinary people suffer for (strategic?) mistakes of their self proclaimed leadership?
The persecution of minorities in Pakistan is a result of a discourse and narrative created by a state. The state itself is responsible for this, the ideology on which this state rests is responsible for this. And for that, not Shias or Sunnis but all Muslims are responsible and that includes Ahmadi Muslims as well. It was none other than Sir Zafrullah Khan who drafted Pakistan Resolution and was the front man for Objectives Resolution. He was ardent supporter of this mother of all evil which plagues Pakistan today and had no qualms in siding with Mufti Usmani Deobandi to ensure this resolution gets maximum support. However, he refused to join the funeral prayer of Jinnah being led by same Usmani. By the logic that you use, I should blame the Ahmadis for their own persecution – should I? The problem is that the whole Muslim leadership is guilty of short shortsightedness and you can not blame the people today for crimes that their ancestors committed several decades ago whether in 40s or 74.
I have explained earlier as well and doing again now. I do not know a single Ahmadi who was killed by a Shia. I do not know a single event/conference/rally organised by Shia on pretext of Khatm-e-Nabuwat to bash Ahmadis and calling upon Shias to kill Ahmadis. This has never happened. This stuff against Ahmadis comes from same people who kill the Shias. I have earlier and will agree again that yes Shia clergy has looked eye to eye with Sunni clergy on anti Ahmadi laws and have not opposed Sunni clerics. However, they have not made use of the laws to call upon Shia men to kill Ahmadis. The Shia clergy support the anti Ahmadi laws for a strategic reason out of fear. The state narrative does not allow any alternative opinion and has left almost no space for Shias. The Shia clerics can not even defend their own set of beliefs and practices on TV, let alone of others. They lose no opportunity to try to prove to Sunni clerics and masses that they are like them, they are with them. This is a desperate measure to ensure their safety. This is a chameleon tactic which I sometimes refer to as Wahabisation of Shiism. I may not agree with this approach but only explaining that they do this out of fear as a desperate measure. The same fear because of which no Ahmadi has come out to protest their own persecution ever. Have Ahmadis organised a single protest ever despite being persecuted in hundreds for years? Fear, isn’t it? (We organised a protest after Ahmadi Mosque attack in 2010 near Jamia Muntazir Lahore after Friday prayer and all protesters were Shia, not a single Ahmadi showed up despote being invited) When Ahmadis have not been able to do much for themselves out of fear, you expect bigoted clerics to do something for them who have not been able to do much for their own community? And that too when the clerics on both sides are half Muslim to each other? You can continue to hope that, I will take charge myself and try to do something about it.
You talk about bigotry of clerics but the fact of the matter is it transcends beyond religions and sects. I refrain from debates on theology, religion and finding excerpts from books of clerics and what they have said but you have been doing that for a while not realizing this is counter productive. The roots of my activism and morality are in secular learning. I do not need a cleric to tell me what is right and what is wrong or to respect Ahmadis or not. You will not be short of objectionable material in books from any sect but best to make them irrelevant.
We have convinced a lot of activists to support Ahmadi Muslims not by studying your books and agreeing to your beliefs but by deciding to ignore what you believe in and take your words. Infact I do not know about Ahmadi beliefs and I do not want to because it is irrelevant to my activism. Many activists have choose to believe that let Ahmadis call themselves Muslims because they say so and let God decide because that is how it should be. No cleric has told them to do this. You want to get down to cleric route? Go ahead and you will face dozens of snapshots from Ahmadi books asking you why should we be supportive of them when they consider us non Muslims? None is ignorant here and everyone knows Ahmadi beliefs about non Ahmadis. I am a regular follower of MTA and as per Ahmadi belief if I am not a Kaafir, at best I am “lesser Kaafir” for not believing in Mirza saahib. So you want to play cleric-cleric, do that but I do not have the time and energy to get into these useless debates because I can respect Ahmadis by ignoring what their clerics say about me.
In this cleric-cleric game, may be you can go to Ahmadi clercis and convince them to declare Shia Amin Shaheedi as fully Muslim (while not believing in Mirza saahib) and offer prayer behind a non Ahmadi Imam and I can go convince Shia clergy to give up support for anti Ahmadi laws telling them you its being squared off.
In my view, bigotry transcends religions and sects. People are bigots not ideas. You can try changing things through clerics but I prefer working directly with people. It saves time and effort of working on bigoted clerics from all sects including Shias and Ahmadis.
January 27 at 3:49am · Edited · Like · 8
Kashif N Chaudhry //My objection is to this usual narrative which most Ahmadis have subscribed to including yourself, which I have observed recently. On every incident of Shia killings they will come up with all kinds of excuses and stories telling us “as you sow so shall you reap”, “you did this and that to Ahmadis and now its your turn” – basically telling the Shias that you deserved it. This is absolutely ridiculous. //
Where did I ever say that? This is the very first time I spoke against Shia clergy and I surprised to see the attitude of otherwise calm Shia activists. Now you are also blaming me of “defending and justifying” #ShiaGenocide? This is ridiculous beyond words.
January 27 at 3:50am · Like · 3
Ale Natiq The video that you have been sharing has the exact words “as you sow so shall you reap” at the end. What is that supposed to mean?
January 27 at 3:51am · Like
Kashif N Chaudhry That means what it says. It is a message for all Shia clergy that if you preach others are Wajib ul Qatal, dont expect flowers from the Takfeeris? Whats wrong with stating this? Did I EVER justify or defend ShiaGenocide or did I ALWAYS speak against it? One time I speak against Shia Mullahs and all hell breaks lose
January 27 at 3:52am · Like · 2
Kashif N Chaudhry You need to stop this attitude. It is not helpful. My point is simple. Your leadership is bigoted. Ameen Shaheedi or Allama yousuf Hussain, all are bigots! I will speak against them. Pray tell me how do I defend ShiaGenocide by speaking against them? I need a detailed explanation for this ridiculous allegation you lay on me.
January 27 at 3:53am · Like
Kashif N Chaudhry I will now make sure I always speak up against Shia Mullahs just as much as I do against Sunni Mullahs. Your reaction is uncalled for and your accusing me of defending #ShiaGenocide is frustrating to say the least.
January 27 at 3:56am · Like · 1
Ale Natiq You say as if I care what someone say about Shia mullahs. Leadership of all sects is bigoted including Shias and Ahmadis. All mullahs are bigots. I told you I do not get offended by what someone says about another person or Prophet or Imam. I am not the angry Muslim who calls everything blasphemy. Anyway, I have clarified my position in detail. Do you have skype? We can talk sometime.
January 27 at 4:03am · Edited · Like · 2
Kashif N Chaudhry I will inbox you my Skype. However, your accusing me of endorsing #ShiaGenocide is something I want a public explanation for. Thanks.
January 27 at 4:03am · Like
Ale Natiq Readers can judge what I have said. You are misunderstanding. May be you can read it again.
January 27 at 4:04am · Like · 1
Wasif Akbar Rizvi Kashif N Chaudhry the ‘leadership’ which you are referring to is a self styled group of mullahs who are beleaguered in attempting to figure out some ground to stand on. They do sound bigoted and conspiratorial. Ale Natiq also posted Sistani who I think outranks Shaheedi moreover Ahmadis are a denomination of Sunni Islam so the onus of accepting their interpret ion is squarely on Sunnis, the general example of Shias and their stand on takfir is their stance on their sub-sects (Ismaili Bohris etc) it only shudders me to imagine if those groups were Sunnis….
January 27 at 4:07am · Like · 2
Kashif N Chaudhry //On every incident of Shia killings they will come up with all kinds of excuses and stories telling us “as you sow so shall you reap”, “you did this and that to Ahmadis and now its your turn” – basically telling the Shias that you deserved it. This is absolutely ridiculous. The Shia being killed today were not even born in 1974 when Ahmadis were declared non Muslims. Why should they suffer? Is it alright for someone to be killed because (let’s say) one of the clerics from his sect supported anti Ahmadi laws? Why should ordinary people suffer for (strategic?) mistakes of their self proclaimed leadership?//
1) No. it is not ok for anyone to suffer. And who ever said they should suffer? A Mullah calls me Wajib ul Qatal. I speak against him. How does that mean I am endorsing suffering. Are you unable to see my daily posts or my cover photo?
2) Who ever said Shias deserved this? Why should I not be free to take down a Shia Mullah?
3) I say this again. Bigotry is the rule, not the exception, amongst Shia Mullahs. You are uable to name ONE chia cleric who speaks against anti-Ahmadi bigotry. So lets keep it real please. No defense please.
Everything aside, where did I say Shias should suffer and deserved to be killed? How did you come to this conclusion. Braek it down for me.
January 27 at 4:08am · Like
Mohsin Muhammad C’mon guys. Peace. Ale you know very well that I’m an ahmadi and I really respect you for raising voice in favour of ahmadis on all possible plateforms despite all of the abusive storm you have to cope with … So hats off to you brother … It’s true that Allama sahib shouldn’t be saying those words, declaring ahmadis and terrorists as ONE and like most of the people around keep saying that Ahmadiyyah is a seed sown by British colonialists .. Totally illogical
January 27 at 4:09am · Like · 3
Kashif N Chaudhry Wasif, thanks for agreeing Shaheedi is a bigot. It takes a simple confession and admission. Making this into my defense of #ShiaGenocide is the most disgusting thing I have heard in 2014 so far.
January 27 at 4:10am · Like
Kashif N Chaudhry Mohsin, I am an Ahmadi too and I have no problem with discussing this issue. I only have issue with this deliberate attempt to equate a condemnation of bigotry with defense of #ShiaGenocide. Itni opposition to mujhe sunnis ne kabhi nahi di when i criticize their Mullajhs!
January 27 at 4:11am · Like
Kashif N Chaudhry Ale Natiq Where did I say Shias should suffer and deserved to be killed? How did you come to this conclusion? And why do you falsely state that I bring up this argument “every time shias are killed.” Which shias were killed today? This is the first time I spoke against a Shia Mullah. I speak against Sunni Mullahs on a daily basis.
January 27 at 4:18am · Like
Tariq Jamil Khan my humble advice to ale natiq sahib….please do not mix current shia politics , with your own religious beliefs……if u were able to seperate the two , you will realise that your faith/version ( and not just the clergy rhetoric) like the sunni faith/version converge perfectly when it comes to the ahmadi question ….both of these great versions of islam , along with thier followers need to consider whether its fair to be so harsh towards another version , which diverges on an issue of naboowat
January 27 at 4:19am · Like · 4
Kashif N Chaudhry I am rarely so upset as today when a Shia activist accused me of defending #ShiaGenocide because I spoke against a Shia Mullah who considers me Wajib ul Qatal. I will let my frustrations go to sleep with my body and try to convince myself that Ale was forced to levy such accusations out of his ego. He is a good man I know. Good night!
January 27 at 4:22am · Edited · Like
Tariq Jamil Khan it is not fair for the shias to align themselves with the ahamdis because it is politically expedient for them to do so now…and pretend that they were always like this…that iam afraid would mean that they are being intellectually dishonest as well as being co persecutors…..the fact of the matter is that from 1974 to say 2004, the ordinary shias would never even consider this realignment…..and even in the past decade or so , only a few courageous souls are willing to deviate from thier official line……fact of the matter is that if shias ( or indeed sunnis )are to to realign themselves on this it would be highly commendable from a humanistic view point…but they will first have to accept that thier earlier persecutions were wrong and unjustifiable
January 27 at 4:25am · Like
Tariq Jamil Khan mere realignment is not acceptable…coz it smacks of political expediency
January 27 at 4:25am · Like
Ale Natiq I have not accused you individually, I used the word “they”. Please read again. My comment for you was about the line in your video which you have explained. With the backdrop all comments on several chains in last few days, it gave an impression that it was meant for Shia masses but you have explained that it was for Shia clergy and so it makes sense. I do apologize if I have hurt you or if I sound like I was accusing you individually, that was not my intention. The para in this long comment was a general analysis on Ahmadi reaction on Shia killings in recent days.
January 27 at 4:28am · Like · 4
Kashif N Chaudhry Thanks Ale Natiq for the clarification. Next time you come across an Ahmadi that justifies Shia killing in any way, let me know. I will take it from there. Ahmadi Khalifa himself has condemned ShiaGenocide. Sects or faith groups are always represented by clergy. Unlike the Ahmadiyya leadership, Shia clergy is still bigoted and endorses anti-Ahmadi persecution. Saying they must not be compared to Sunni clergy because they are “lesser bigots” is not a valid argument. A bigot is a bigot. Period. I am glad you clarified that stating this fact does not hurt you. Lets keep working on reforming the Shia clergy and move on from this topic.
January 27 at 4:32am · Like · 5
Mohsin Muhammad Yup kashif… You’ve got your stance but to me Ale natiq has done enough even by sharing this post knowing that he n his sect will face some criticism from Ahmadis n this shows he’s got courage… He isn’t defending Allama sahib at any point else he wouldn’t share such post… All I’ve known him as a person having tender heart for every human suffering from mullahism irrespective of their faith. .. Be it Shia,Hindu , Christian, ahmadi or any other oppressed miniority … And that to me is enough to vote for him … How many of the people around do you see standing for oppressed ones? Very few ? Yes right .. So we should respect one who even dares criticising a cleric belonging to his own faith. Not an easy thing bro… A leftist of the highest order can do it only … At first when I subscribed to this page I was confused if some ahmadi was its admin. Gradually I came to know its not though… So my point is we should encourage such person for raising vocal which honestly we(you or me ) should be doing … And yes like Ale said there’s not a single incident where Shia raised slogans against ahmadis nor a single rally n hatred speeches in kharm e nabuwah processions ..
January 27 at 4:37am · Like · 1
Kashif N Chaudhry Mohsin, I agree with whatever you said. Ale is a friend and doston me is tara ki arguments ho jati hain. Ale bhi garam khoon activist hai na, kya karay Ale, a hug from my side and lets get back to what we do best. We are on the same team. Take care
January 27 at 4:39am · Like
Syed Kashif Rizvi Well … In this discussion of friends some facts must not be overlooked … As Wasif Akbar Rizvi points out, ahmedis are a ‘product’ of (in addition to the british home office) Sunni Islam .. as their ‘Shahada’ and their fiqh closely resemble hanafi … We dont believe that they are ‘kaafirs’ or Waajib ul qatal’ as we are not takfiris .. but what is most certainly true is that they follow a liar, who claimed to be Jesus (as) and Mehdi (as) at the same time … (hence the split between ahmediya and lahori group, who beleive he is one of these), He was supposed to fill the earth with ‘justice’ but all he did was to fill his pockets … and of that small cult which follows him … I for one send Lanat on him daily as he was a great blasphemer promoted by the british … here are some of his ‘sayings) about Syedulshuhuda Imam Hussain (as) …
“O Shia nation! Don’t insist that (Syedna Imam) Hussein is your savior because I tell you truthfully that today there is one among you who is greater than Hussein.”
Dafe al Bala P.13, Roohani Khazain Vol.18 P.233.
He expresses his glory:
“I am touring Karbala every moment
100 Husseins are always in my pocket.”
Durre Sameen Persian P.136
Mirza writes in his book, Aijaz-e-Ahmadi:
“There is great difference between me and your Hussein
Because I am getting every moment help from God
But Hussein? Just recall the plains of Karbala
Till now you are crying, so just ponder!”
Aijaz-e-Ahmadi, Roohani Khazain Vol.19 P.181
He writes further:
“I am the victim of Love but your Hussein was murdered by the enemies. The difference is quite clear and obvious.”
Aijaz-e-Ahmadi P.81, Roohani Khazain Vol.19 P.193
Curse be upon such people…Baishumaar
January 27 at 5:20am · Like
Kashif N Chaudhry ^ Ale: See how Jazbati ordinary Shia Muslims are mashAllah. LeJ says Shia Kafir, and these people say Qadiani Kafir, Qadianion par Lanat. Just as LeJ misquote Shia leaders, this guy misquotes Mirza Sahib to incite hatred. Is there any Shia here who condemns Syed Kashif Rizvi Sahib? Or are the majority with him?
January 27 at 5:24am · Like · 3
Syed Kashif Rizvi How is it a misquote you fool?
January 27 at 5:25am · Like · 1
Kashif N Chaudhry An ordinary Shia: “I for one send Lanat on him daily as he was a great blasphemer and a disgusting idiot promoted by the british.” Qadiani Kafir.
LeJ/SSP: “Send Lanat on Shias daily. Shia Kafirs.”
How do you reconcile the two Kashif Sahib? I’ll let Shia friends on Ale’s wall decide for me if they support your views or condemn your bigotry.
January 27 at 5:26am · Like · 2
Syed Kashif Rizvi you said ‘misquote’ … tell me what i misquoted .. rather than this bullshit … where did i say you were Kaafir? … Lanat is mentioned in qoran repeatedly, which means ‘taking away of allah’s mercy’ … so lanat on your fake liar .. is what i am saying ..
January 27 at 5:28am · Like · 1
Kashif N Chaudhry Are you a Shia scholar Kashif Sahib? I see you are an endocrinologist. Do most Shias around you subscribe to your views against Ahmadi Muslims?
January 27 at 5:28am · Like · 1
Kashif N Chaudhry “Oh Lanat on fake Liar who is an idiot” does not count as hate speech in your eyes? Well, then tell me, do you agree with Pakistan’s anti-Ahmadi laws like your clergy does?
January 27 at 5:29am · Like · 2
Kashif N Chaudhry I am glad you jumped in. I will need your permission to use your comments. Ale Natiq ye dekhle phir na kahin!
January 27 at 5:30am · Like · 2
Syed Kashif Rizvi answer my question … what did i write which is not correct? … i will repeat .. did this man not claim to be jesus ? …. did he not claim to be Mehdi (as)? …did he not ridicule Syedulshuhda (as)? … of course i detest and despise him … and send lanat on him … also confirm please for all of us how he died?
January 27 at 5:30am · Like · 1
Ali Zaidi To the best of my knowledge, Alama Syedna Ayatollah Ale Natiq is the only shia cleric of note who considers Ahmadiya Muslims.
January 27 at 5:32am · Like · 2
Kashif N Chaudhry Ikram Jalla Leo Safavid Reza Soltani Ali A. Naqvi Maula Bux Thadani Ali Abbas Inayatullah Syed Anser Naqvi Humza Ikram Omid Safi Rabia Sanam Samin Siddiqi Does anyone of you know Syed Kashif Rizvi personally or is he just a troll?
January 27 at 5:33am · Like
Syed Kashif Rizvi This liar ‘ghulam ahmad’ lied that he received ‘wahee’ in 7 languages … lol … watch his ‘grammer’ ..allah’s fax malfunctioning ..
Mirza claimed to have received revelations in 7 different languages which included Urdu, Arabic, Persian, English, Sanskrit, Hebrew etc. Here is one revelation that God “revealed” to Mirza Ghulam Ahmad in the English language:
In a compilation of Mirza’s “revelations” in the book Tadhkhirah, God revealed to Mirza in English:
“God is coming by His army. He is with you to kill enemy”
January 27 at 5:35am · Edited · Like
Ali Zaidi uff, Syed Kashif Rizvi, your preposterous mouthful of undignified rant at someone else’s faith has revealed more about your faith than his. Folks like you were the primary reason I ceased believing in your bullshit religion.
January 27 at 5:36am · Like · 4
Syed Kashif Rizvi Here is what Mirza predicted about Jews and them never having a country or ruling:
“They (Jews) will never have a state and they will never receive any victory till the day of resurrection “Yawm-ul-Qiyamah”
Source: Rohani Khazain, vol 5, A’ina Kamalat Islam, page 452.
January 27 at 5:36am · Like
Kashif N Chaudhry He actively spreads hate speech against Ahmadi Muslims, calling the founder of the community a Liar, an idiot whom he curses daily. Yet he decries the hate speech by anti-Shia Lashkar-e-Jhangvi etc? Since he is an open bigot and a mutual friend with you, I wanted to make sure you are aware of this. If an Ahmadi showed similar behavior, he’d be reprimnaded by now. I am surprised to see Shias quiet at his continued bigotry.
January 27 at 5:36am · Like · 2
Ali Zaidi Reading your comments, others, I know will leave too.
January 27 at 5:36am · Like · 1
Syed Kashif Rizvi Mr Kashif .. i am asking you to refute any of the historical facts i stated please ..dont try to hide & hugs arm chair shias …
January 27 at 5:37am · Like · 1
Ali Zaidi All it takes for me to give you a dose of your own medicine would be to copy paste from a website like faithfreedom incendiary things about Muhammad. How would you feel?
January 27 at 5:37am · Like · 3
Kashif N Chaudhry Thanks for hitting my point home Kashif Sahib. The Shia Muslim sect is infested with the same bigotry that they decry amongst certain Sunni extremists. May God open your heart and teach you Hussainiyat amen.
January 27 at 5:38am · Like · 4
Ali Zaidi This thread should be preserved for the posterity.
January 27 at 5:39am · Like · 4
Syed Kashif Rizvi lol … dont patronise ..scroll up and tell us how this man said all those things
January 27 at 5:39am · Like
Kashif N Chaudhry Tauba Tauba, started the say with an extremist Shia pulmonologist, ended it with an even more bigoted endocrinologist. MashAllah! Ya Ali Madad please!
January 27 at 5:40am · Like · 3
Syed Kashif Rizvi was he jesus? … was he mehdi? … was he ‘superior to Syedulshuhuda? (nauzaubillah)??? … he was just an ordinary liar ..ten a penny .. promoted by british … refute my points rather than write bullshit
January 27 at 5:40am · Like · 1
Kashif N Chaudhry I could refute your points easily my friend. But for now, your presence here is enough and has proven all my day’s work. Thanks again. You dont even know how you have helped me. I am eager to see reactiom from other Shias now.
January 27 at 5:42am · Like · 4
Ali Zaidi Awais Masood. Mohsin Sayeed. Shumail Zaidi, Hadia Khan. Sajjad Haider
January 27 at 5:42am · Like · 1
Sammy Chaudry LOL WHAT A BIGOT
January 27 at 5:42am · Like · 3
Ali Zaidi Syed Kashif Rizvi, do you realize you’re a bigot?
January 27 at 5:42am · Like · 4
Syed Kashif Rizvi no ….dont throw crappy sloppy words … i have given u refrences …refute or confirm them
January 27 at 5:43am · Like
Kashif N Chaudhry Yasmeen Fatima
January 27 at 5:43am · Like
Syed Kashif Rizvi yes, keep asking your buger mummy and daddies for help … i have quoted this liar’s books and mistakes .. confirm or refute please
January 27 at 5:44am · Like
Ali Zaidi He is under no compulsion to perform a critical exegesis of the scriptures, his and yours (which just happen to be the same)
January 27 at 5:45am · Like · 1
Kashif N Chaudhry Fawzia Naqvi already de-friended me for speaking against Ameen Shaheedi Sahib. I am sensing there is a huge ego issue with some Shia friends and they feel above all criticism. Today was such an eye-opener for me.
January 27 at 5:46am · Like · 2
Syed Kashif Rizvi Recap …
“O Shia nation! Don’t insist that (Syedna Imam) Hussein is your savior because I tell you truthfully that today there is one among you who is greater than Hussein.”
Dafe al Bala P.13, Roohani Khazain Vol.18 P.233.
He expresses his glory:
“I am touring Karbala every moment
100 Husseins are always in my pocket.”
Durre Sameen Persian P.136
Mirza Laanati writes in his book, Aijaz-e-Ahmadi:
“There is great difference between me and your Hussein
Because I am getting every moment help from God
But Hussein? Just recall the plains of Karbala
Till now you are crying, so just ponder!”
Aijaz-e-Ahmadi, Roohani Khazain Vol.19 P.181
He writes further:
“I am the victim of Love but your Hussein was murdered by the enemies. The difference is quite clear and obvious.”
Aijaz-e-Ahmadi P.81, Roohani Khazain Vol.19 P.193
January 27 at 5:46am · Like · 1
Syed Kashif Rizvi Listen fella ..i am sure u can read … this is all from this man’s books …confirm or refute
January 27 at 5:46am · Like
Syed Kashif Rizvi Ok ..now its time for me to work and all these burger people to make a group hug for you to cry …ok .. Byeeeeeeeeeee
January 27 at 5:48am · Like
Sammy Chaudry Syed Kashif Rizwi; IS THAT THE REASON YOU CONSIDER AHMADIS AS NON MUSLIMS JUST THOSE MISREPRESENTED QUOTES??
January 27 at 5:48am · Like · 2
Kashif N Chaudhry What percentage of Shias would you say share your bigoted approach and your hateful attitude towards Ahmadi Muslims? Some Shia activists tell me your likes are a minority. How would you respond?
January 27 at 5:49am · Like · 3
Syed Kashif Rizvi so u cant read? (parting comment) ..what this liar writes about Syedulshuhuda (as) is written twice above ..confirm or refute ..or shut it
January 27 at 5:50am · Like
Ali Zaidi Kashif rizvi, I can post some stuff here which will really make you cringe. The only reason I’m holding my tongue is I don’t want to offend my friends. I can post thousand things from Kitab al Kaafi, reading which, your unsuspecting Sunni friends will be forced to declare you Kafir too.
January 27 at 5:50am · Like · 4
Sammy Chaudry MANY OF YOUR FELLOW MINDED SHIA ULEMA USE ACTUALLY ABUSE IN THE MOST VILE AND WORSE LANGUAGE FOR THE BELOVED SHAHABA OF RASOOLALAH(sw) WHAT ABOUT THAT??
January 27 at 5:50am · Like · 5
Syed Kashif Rizvi and Sammy ..u cant read also? … where did i say u were kaafir? ..please show me … all the quotes r from liar’s books … please confirm or refute …
January 27 at 5:51am · Like
Syed Kashif Rizvi as the ‘desert’ in this discussion …i will ask my ahmedi friends last question … Please tell us how did this man die???
January 27 at 5:52am · Like
Kashif N Chaudhry Sammy Chaudry dont engage him. Lets see how other Shias respond. I am eager to see.
January 27 at 5:52am · Edited · Like · 1
Syed Kashif Rizvi haha, yes ‘dont engagehim’ because he will tell that this ‘jesus & mehdi’ combined instead of filling the world with justice died of dysentry on a loo!!! (FACT) …byeeeeeeeeeee
January 27 at 5:53am · Like
Kashif N Chaudhry ^ Thats fine Sammy. No explanation please. Let us see what his own say. I have been talking about this all day. I am glad he walked in.
January 27 at 5:55am · Edited · Like
Sammy Chaudry OK BROTHER I WILL CALL IT A DAY;;;I KNOW OF SEVERAL SHIA BROTHERS WHO GENUINELY STAND UP FOR US ON MANY FORUMS MANY TIMES AND BROTHER Ale Natiq IS ONE OF THEM. but most of the clerics are like this Rizwi Guy HATEFUL BIGOTS
January 27 at 5:58am · Like · 3
Kashif N Chaudhry Thats ok Sammy. The point is simple: General shias are no different than general sunnis when it comes to hatred for Ahmadi Muslims. The clergy shared the same bigoted DNA. I am glad I brought this topic up. I would never have known this bitter fact.
January 27 at 6:01am · Like · 4
Ali Zaidi yes, its been settled once and for all. though some may argue one person’s views may not reflect those of the community as a whole, but, having been brought up and raised as a Shia, I can assure you he views are representative of majority of 99.99 shi’ites. The other 0.001 percent include people like me who are Shia just by virtue of birth. Of course the rising tide of sectarian violence, victims of which are predominantly shia, has forced few to rethink the treatment their folks in collusion with their sunni “brothers” meted out to Ahmadiyas. Kafir is a very relative thing, just saying.
January 27 at 6:07am · Like · 10
Adnan Rana Musulman nahi tu kam az kam insaan he samjho
January 27 at 7:02am · Like · 2
Maqbool Ahmed Two types of discussions:
1. Quoting stuff to prove Ahmadiyya ideology, a wrong ideology and using bad words against Ahmadis.
2. Condemning Bigots/hatemongers in any community.
Kashif N Chaudhry was doing 2nd discussion while he started with few posts and condemned a Shea friend who use hate bad words for Ahmadis.
Kashif also pointed out some Shea clergy who spread hate against Amadis.
Meanwhile Kashif stated that he knows many Shea friends who are against Ahmadiyya persecution.
Some people brought 2nd discussion by putting quotes to prove Ahmadiyya ideology a wrong ideology and used bad words for Ahmadiyya Imam.
Discussion with quotations from other’s books to prove them wrong and using bad language for other’s elders is a “Takfiri” attitude.
January 27 at 7:06am · Like · 3
Tariq Jamil Khan Kashif regrettably this drama that this is just some shia clergy has been badly exposed on this thread….a vast majority of shia brothers will hold same or similar views abt ahmaddiyat….lets plz all nt pretend otherwise and fool ourselves
January 27 at 8:41am · Like · 2
Shumail Zaidi Slow clap for all here, mashaAllah, nazar na lagay….. What I am amazed at is that those who cry and protest against ShiaGenocide all morning, after being declared Kafir by certain sect, they declare Ahmedis kafir in the evening and call them Wajibul Qatl. I dont understand how people manage such double standards? Taking up God’s role and deciding who is muslim and who is not is the worst kind of blasphemy for me. At the same time, its not majority of shias only who would consider Ahmedis kafir , its majority Muslims, that includes Shia Sunni both. Whats our job here (bunch of people from both sects) is to spread the awareness. qatra qatra banay samander, even my family and friends always called Ahmedi kafirs but I was able to change their minds and this is what is needed. Lets not blame each other please, lets find those who believe in humanity first. Whoever consider himself a True Hussaini, would Struggle against tyranny and side with “Mazloom”, no matter what the victim or tyrant’s religion/sect/creed/caste is. I stand with my Ahmedi Muslim brothers, I repeat AHMEDI MUSLIM brothers!
January 27 at 11:35am · Like · 10
Shumail Zaidi Tariq Jamil Khan just shias? what are your thoughts about sunni muslims? They shower you with petals? Plz…. its majority who is of this mindset, not just shias.
January 27 at 11:40am · Like · 3
Kashif N Chaudhry Tariq Bhai is Sunni himself Shumail. Thanks for your kind words. Point was yesterday some Shia Muslims were saying anti-Ahmadi bigotry was largely a Sunni phenomenon. Sadly, I found out yesterday that it is equally a Shia one. Of course with exceptions like you and ale et al.
January 27 at 12:21pm · Like · 3
Hassan Raza ^ Main bhi Main Bhi
January 27 at 12:33pm · Like · 3
Kashif N Chaudhry Haha of course Hassan Bhai.
January 27 at 12:47pm · Like · 1
Ram Chand asal baat yeh hay kah saray mullah hi ghalat hain chahay woh shia hoon sunni hoon ya ahmadi hoon. har koi apnay apnay molvi ko defend karnay main laga hay. kaun kehta hay ahmadi mullah woh sab nahi kartay jo dosray mullah nahi kartay? 19-20 ka faraq ho sakta hay theek hay par hain saray kay saray bigoted molvi. sunni mullah shia ko kaafir kahay to bigot, shia mullah ahmadi ko kafir kahay to bigot, ahmadi mullah baki saray musalmanon ko kafir kahay to woh bigot nahin? mufti saab yeh kya baat hui? jab ahmadi mullah non ahmadi mullahs ke pechay namaz parhna shuru kar dainge, jab ahmadis ghair ahmadis ka janaza parhny lagain gain to keh lain gay keh ye bigot nahin hain. baqi yeh tareqa kaar ghalat hay. shia apnay molviyon ko koi bat nahin suntay aur ahmadis apnay k baray main koi nahin suntay. ho gaya masla hal aisay to.
January 27 at 12:57pm · Like · 1
Laila Changezi In few words, if we copy the attitude of ignorants and bash our fellow minority groups by symbolic violence, then it would be double standards. Needless to say, poor ethics does reflect back at us.
What ulema do, at end we can not take blame for it since dependent on taqliid, everyone has their own discourse unlike Ahmadis, they have a Khalifa and his words is finality to them all. So, Love for all – hatred for none as Ahmadi friends believes in.
Dunya do din ki aur hangama hazaar-hah..
January 27 at 1:08pm · Like · 1
Tariq Jamil Khan i agree Shumail Zaidisunnis are atleast equally at fault ….but the reason iam focussing on shia alone on this thread is because the point of contention here is shia denial thats its obnly some of thier clergy
January 27 at 1:50pm · Edited · Like · 2
Shumail Zaidi I understand now.
January 27 at 2:02pm · Like · 2
Yasmeen Fatima This thread makes me so embarrassed to call myself a Muslim (of any sect). Why is it so hard for Pakistanis to condemn the killings of innocent Pakistanis? It doesn’t matter whose subsect they belong to or when they were formed, by who or why or what they believe. Perpetrators of Shia Genocide have the same views about Shias while moderate Sunnis have the same apathy towards Shia killings. Nothing short of a unequivocal condemnation of injustice should be our duty if we are to claim to follow Imam Hussain (AS).
January 27 at 2:49pm · Edited · Like · 8
Zafar Abbas I haven’t read all the comments so forgive me if I’m repeating. There’s a difference between saying that group x has heterodox beliefs which according to certain interpretations would render a person outside Islam and that this justifies hate, violence and/or killing towards members of that group. While I believe that theologically Ahmadis are outside the fold of Islam due to their belief in Mirza Ghulam Ahmad and the claims that he made, I would never ever condone violence towards them nor has any Shia leadership condoned violence towards them to my own knowledge.
January 27 at 4:00pm · Like · 1
Zafar Abbas In this regard I think it is important to keep theological and political discussions separate and make sure we are clear what we are talking about
January 27 at 4:01pm · Like · 1
Yasmeen Fatima That’s no different than a liberal (yet apathetic) Sunni saying, “Shias shouldn’t be killed even though they are kafirs”.
What’s the point? Besides leave the judging to Allah. He/She’s got that covered.
January 27 at 4:07pm · Like · 1
Zafar Abbas Well I don’t care if anyone thinks someone else is a kafir as long as they don’t deny the right of life. My problem with TTP/SSP/LEJ is not that they think I’m kafir but that they think that I don’t deserve to live.
January 27 at 4:16pm · Like · 1
Ram Chand it is useless discussion trying to convince sects and clerics that others are muslims… according to ahmadis, all non ahmadis are kafir. a sunni or shia who does not believe in mirza ghulam ahmed is a kafir as per ahmadis. similarly, ahmadis are kafir as per shia and sunni belief.
remember zafrulah khan did not offer funeral of a shia jinnah being lead by a sunni cleric. he was a religious ahmadi man. no ahmadi is allowed to pray behing non ahmadi muslim.
an opinion about someone’s belief is one thing, condoning violence another.
otherwise, ahmadis = lej but that is not how i look into things. ahmadis do not kill others, although consider others kafir but they are not lej.
so i was saying activists should go beyond this and focus on political work warna there is objectionable material from all sides….
January 27 at 4:23pm · Like · 3
Zafar Abbas Yasmeen Fatima just to clarify I work in interfaith and intrafaith relations – they all know what I believe and what I think of their beliefs but that doesn’t mean we are at each other’s throats – on the contrary, we respect each other’s views as civilised people would do and see how our common views can be used as a force for good in the world.
January 27 at 4:42pm · Like · 2
Ram Chand the problem with this approach is that it brings out animosities…. people who want to work together and want to support each other should unite on political fronts because on religious side, all sects have similar opinion of each other…
like see this video… an ahmadi mullah is saying that ahmadis should not pray for non ahmadis as per instruction of mirza saahab and if someone does, his faith is in danger…. is this not bigotry?
https://www.facebook.com/photo.php?v=1383386765258468
Ahmadis should not pray for non Ahmadis
Ahmadi mullah says Ahmadis should not pray for non Ahmadis … this puts their faith (emaan) in danger
Length: 4:09
January 27 at 4:48pm · Like · 1
Ram Chand then here is Ahmadi Khalifa sb banning marriage of ahmadis with non ahmadi muslims
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ATrdaCoWHYM
Is a Ahmadi Muslim permitted to marry a non-Ahmadi Muslim?
Is a Ahmadi Muslim permitted to marry a non-Ahmadi Muslim? Answers by Hazrat Mirza Tahir Ahmad (ra) Khalifatul Masih IV (Fourth Successor of the worldwide Ah…
January 27 at 4:49pm · Edited · Like
Zafar Abbas Maybe it’s just me but I really don’t care what people think of my beliefs because I don’t believe in them because of people anyway. I clearly state what is written in the texts in my interfaith gatherings as do people of other faiths state what is written in theirs. As long as there is no incitement to violence it’s all good in my opinion.
January 27 at 4:57pm · Like · 2
Ram Chand you are right zafar saab because that is how all sects, infact religions work. we can not expect for christians to accept our faith, similarly ahmadis should not expect sunnis to accept all their beliefs, just like ahmadis take liberty to do takfir of others on base of their faith
https://www.facebook.com/photo.php?v=1383403181923493
Ahmadis should strictly not marry non Ahmadis
Ahmadi mullah says Ahmadis should strictly not marry non Ahmadis
Length: 3:52
January 27 at 5:02pm · Like · 1
Yasmeen Fatima Believing someone’s faith is wrong is normal (otherwise you’d be following it too). But publicly stating that they are kafirs especially in a religiously charged country does nothing for building interfaith bridges or curbing violence/bigotry against them.
I may think my neighbor is a fat ugly monstrosity of a specimen but I don’t tell him that because it probably would hurt out neighborly relations.
January 27 at 5:11pm · Like · 4
Ram Chand yes but the thing is all sects do that, sunnis are no exception. ahmadis are guilty of the same. they blatantly say non ahmadis are kafir, you can not marry them, you can not pray with them or pray for them…. why except good from others then? we can support each other without going down to this, if we focus on politcal front and political support for each other that will work but if ahmadis claim they have the most progressive secular loving clergy in the world and sunnis are the animals and shias are the takfiris this will not work…. clergy across the board work on some principles and do takfir of all other… key is go beyond this which some are not willing to
January 27 at 5:14pm · Like · 2
Ram Chand here is another video
https://www.facebook.com/photo.php?v=1383425531921258
Ahmadi mullah says non Ahmadi Mulims are kafir
Ahmadi mullah says non Ahmadi Mulims are kafir
Length: 0:53
January 27 at 5:17pm · Like · 1
Ram Chand https://www.facebook.com/photo.php?v=1383446948585783
Ahmadis must not pray behind non Ahmadis
Ahmadi mullah says Ahmadis can not pray behind non Ahmadis because they are not Muslim
Length: 2:10
January 27 at 5:32pm · Like
Kashif Mahmood Listen to me that we do not follow your fatwa, we follow the fatwa of Muhammad saw he is our MASTER he said:
‘If a Muslim calls another a kafir, then if he is a kafir, let it be so otherwise he is himself a kafir.’
Sunan Abu Dawood, vol. 3, p. 484
Because you call us Kaffir you have become Kaffir according to the Fatwa of Muhammad (saw). On this the Mirza sahib wrote:
———————————————————-
As the maulvis of this country, due to their bigotry, have generally declared us kafirs and have issued fatwas against us and the rest of the people are their followers, so if there are any persons who, to clear their own position, make an announcement that they do not follow these maulvis who make other kafirs, then it would be allowable to say prayers with them. otherwise, the man who calls a Muslim a kafir becomes a kafir himself. So how can we pray behind him? The Shari’ah does not permit it.’
————————————————————
Ahmad, [Hadhrat] Mirza Ghulam. vide. Badr, 24/31 Demmbsr 1908
Kashif N Chaudhry Ale Natiq
January 27 at 5:41pm · Edited · Like · 1
Ram Chand And more here…. it is endless, that is why i believe this is wrong approach to involve clergy in a political issue
https://www.facebook.com/photo.php?v=1383453338585144
Ahmadis better off praying alone than with non Ahmadis
Ahmadis better off praying alone than with non Ahmadis, says Ahmadi mullah.
Length: 0:20
January 27 at 5:37pm · Like
Kashif Mahmood Mirza sahib said if there are Muslims who do not follow to Moulvis who call other kaffirs, it is permissible to offer prayer behind them.
January 27 at 5:39pm · Like · 2
Ram Chand come on kashif, accept it your mullahs are as bigoted as shia and sunni mullahs. you can not keep on talking about mullahism in sunnis and shia and then go down defending your own mullahs. all mullahs are bigoted including yours. accept it.
January 27 at 5:40pm · Like · 3
Mehsoore Haider We should not discuss those issues which are discussed or mentioned in books. We should accept that the Mullahs have played a dirty game in every sect. I have been supporting Ahmedis because they are oppressed by takfiri groups.I am against their persecution. I am still supporting them although I have strong concerns about their views about shias and sunnis.
Lets talk about common grounds, Ahmedis, Sunni Barelvis and Shias are oppressed by Takfiri Deobandi taliban and sipah sahaba. That should be our common point, What Shaheedi or Ahmedi mullah said shouldn’t be our focus.
Books, youtube, Fb have a lot of things… anyone can take clips and spew hatred against each other.We should accept our mistakes, stop defending wrong doings of mullahs. They have said wrong and we are defending and justifying their hate statements.
January 27 at 5:55pm · Like
Kashif N Chaudhry Show me one Ahmadi cleric who has ever endorse persecution of another human being, let alone a whole Muslim sect. Show me one Ahmadi muslim cleric who considers anyone else wajib Ul qatal and calls for their killings. Show me one Ahmadi cleric that says any other person or sect needs to be exterminated from planet earth because they are agents of Jews and the west. Show me one Ahmadi cleric that says we must hate others and that is part of our faith. Show me one Ahmadi cleric who rejoices at the persecution of others or stays silent when they are pained? The Ahmadi Khalifa himself speaks for Shias wherever they are persecuted. He speaks for Palestinians and for world peace in general.
Yes, I do not pray behind a non-Ahmadi who considers me kafir. No, I do not consider any non-Ahmadi a Kafir. Count the number of times I use Shia Muslim or Sunni Muslim in my comments.
So yes, Ahmadi leadership is not bigoted towards any sect, faith group of person. Shia clergy and Sunni clergy both are equally guilty of promoting hatred against Ahmadis, endorsing their persecution, calling them wajib Ul qatal etc etc.
There is no comparison with the Ahmadiyya leadership. I wish all sects had leaders as open and courageous. No Ahmadi leader ever said “let Shias die, they consider us worthy of death anyway.” What we are taught at mosques is to become like Hussain (as) and speak even for those who consider us worthy of being killed. I hope I made myself clear and I pray my criticism is taken in positive light to educate your leadership. Being defensive is no good sir.
January 27 at 5:55pm · Like · 6
Ram Chand can an ahmadi tell me how is it progressive for ahmadi clerics to declare non ahmadis as kafir, ask ahmadis not to pray for them, not to offer their funeral or offer funeral behind them, not to marry non ahmadis and so bigoted that ahmadis better off praying alone… this is not bigotry? what else is this? you are again doing what usual muslims on both sunni and shia side do, they defend their clerics. you are doing the same. you take liberty to ridicule sunnis and shias but when it comes to ahmadi clerics you find excuses…. very nice. ahmadi clerics are takfiri like sunni and shia clerics. you expect sunnis and shias to support ahmadis while ahmadi clerics call them kafir and have such a bigoted view towards them? and so much so that while ahmadis could not gather courage to protest on their persecution, you expect non ahmadi (kafirs) to come out protest for them. nice… my friend it does not work like that… you have to do condemnations across the board…. ahmadi clerics are also guility… one can say there is a slight difference between sunni shia ahmadi clerics based on thier numbers, street power, state support and how armed are they but otherwise they are all same…
January 27 at 6:01pm · Like · 2
Ram Chand you accuse others of being defensive of clergy while doing exactly the same yourself, in the same breath, same comment – BRILLIANT!!!!
January 27 at 6:02pm · Like · 2
Kashif N Chaudhry I thought I was clear. Ahmadis do not consider any person who considers himself a Muslim anything but a Muslim,
January 27 at 6:07pm · Like
Ram Chand you need to watch vidoes posted above and condemn your clerics then
January 27 at 6:09pm · Like · 1
Kashif N Chaudhry I do accuse you of being defensive because rather than accepted a fact – that Shia clergy is still bigoted against the Ahmadis, you put your shields up and start accusing Ahmadis of things they don’t believe in the first place.
I repeat, show me an Ahmadi cleric that endorses persecution of another group, calls them wajib Ul qatal and preaches that they be exterminated from the world. One Ahmadi cleric that behaves like Shia and Sunni mullahs in endorsing an apartheid of other sects?
January 27 at 6:09pm · Like · 1
Kashif N Chaudhry Condemn for what? For not praying behind a non- Ahmadi? Condem me as much as you want and how does that affect your freedoms if I don’t pray behind you?
January 27 at 6:10pm · Like
Ram Chand i have accepted clergy is bigoted, i am not defending anything. i am clear shia clergy as well as sunni and ahmadi clergy is bigoted, but according you shia and sunnis are bogited but ahmadi clergy is an example of progressive secular values and what not… t
January 27 at 6:11pm · Like · 1
Kashif Mahmood Well that question goes Muhammad (saw) who declared those who call Muslims kaffirs, Kafirs. You are trying to say Prophet Muhammad (saw) was not progressive? Nazubillah!!!!God forbid.
January 27 at 6:11pm · Like
Kashif N Chaudhry Don’t obfuscate the issue in a deliberate attempt to win sympathy for Shia clergy. Fact is that Ahmadi Muslim clergy believes in universal freedoms of all peoples and not just in word but in practice by raining their voice against all persecution including ShiaGenocide without any gridges at all.
January 27 at 6:11pm · Like
Kashif N Chaudhry Yes I stick to my words. Ahmadi clergy endorses freedoms of all and promotes equality and preaches universal justice. How does not praying behind you while preaching your freedoms and rights equate to preaching that you must be killed and your rights must be curtailed? Is that a fair comparison? And yes I will not pray behind anyone who considers me kafir, don’t be heartbroken please.
January 27 at 6:14pm · Like · 1
Mehsoore Haider Kashif, Did you see the videos? What you are saying and what is quoted by your mullahs is not the same. Do not defend them… If someone is accepting that shia clergy did wrong, you should also accept it. that Ahmedi mullahs said wrong for non ahmedis. SIMPLE!!
January 27 at 6:14pm · Like
Kashif N Chaudhry Mehsoor? What is wrong. List it here. Can’t watch videos here. If wrong, I will condemn. If it’s not praying behind a non-Ahmadi who consists me kafir, how is that bigotry and how does that affect your freedoms?
January 27 at 6:15pm · Like
Ram Chand calling ahmadis kafir is a bigotry but when ahmadis call others kafir that is not bigotry? you must be kidding me – no ?
January 27 at 6:16pm · Like
Kashif N Chaudhry Again guys, don’t be defensive. Reform your clergy and move on. Learn from Ahmadi leadership that condemns ShiaGenocide even when Shia clergy consider us worthy of being killed. Just learn, reform and move on.
January 27 at 6:17pm · Like
Mehsoore Haider I think you should watch and then comment. Don’t move forward blindly.
January 27 at 6:17pm · Like
Kashif N Chaudhry When did any Ahmadi cleric call you kafir? We consider everyone who calls themselves Muslim a Muslim. We do not endorse restrictions on freedom of identity. Unlike Shia ulema.
January 27 at 6:18pm · Like
Mehsoore Haider Okay, We should reform our clergy and you should move forward with these thoughts and views against non ahmedis. Wah!
January 27 at 6:18pm · Like
Kashif N Chaudhry Mehsoore, list points here. Thanks.
January 27 at 6:18pm · Like
Ram Chand https://www.facebook.com/photo.php?v=1383497605247384
Non Ahmadis are Kafir: Mirza Ghulam Ahmed
Ahmadi mullah says non Amadis are kafir
Length: 0:30
January 27 at 6:18pm · Like · 1
Kashif N Chaudhry What are my thoughts against non-Ahmadis? List them here. I hope you do now.
January 27 at 6:19pm · Like
Kashif N Chaudhry Just list my thoughts against non-Ahmadis you both. I haven’t seen normal Sunnis get as defensive as some of my Shia friends here. Make a list of “Ahmadi clergy thoughts against non-Ahmadis” and I will make a list of Shia clergy thoughts against Ahmadis and write an article on it of you wish. After work inshAllah.
January 27 at 6:21pm · Like
Kashif N Chaudhry I think I should write on this anyway. It’s getting prolonged now. Denial is as much a disease amongst Shias as amongst Sunnis. Ahmadi Khalifa speaking against Shia genocide is equated to Shia leadership calling Ahmadis wajib Ul qatal. Amazing defense!
January 27 at 6:23pm · Like · 1
Mehsoore Haider Kashif, we are talking on that do not defend your clergy. First watch the videos, these are uploaded for you.
– Whoever don’t accept me (Mirza Ghulam Ahmed Qadiani) is not a Muslim. (Video)
January 27 at 6:25pm · Like
Mehsoore Haider Will you condemn that statement…. Kashif you should watch these before more comments. It is just a waste of time for more arguments.
January 27 at 6:26pm · Like · 1
Ram Chand https://www.facebook.com/photo.php?v=1383507275246417
haha,,, according to this even Kashif is kafir if he considers sunnis and shias as muslims
Ahmadis who consider non Ahmadis as Muslim are Kafir
Any Ahmadi who considers non-Ahmadis as Muslims is a Kafir: Mirza ghulam Ahmed
Length: 1:40
January 27 at 6:30pm · Edited · Like · 1
Ram Chand and kashif could be a khabees too if he as an ahmadi considers non ahmadis as muslims … dont blame me, i am not saying this…
https://www.facebook.com/photo.php?v=1383512448579233
Ahmadis who consider non Ahmadis as Muslim are Khabees
Ahmadis who consider non Ahmadis as Muslim are Khabees
Length: 0:55
January 27 at 6:33pm · Like
Kashif N Chaudhry Now you are quoting anti-Ahmadis. This is the same bigotry your leaders portray when they ascribe wrong views to us and call for our death. I will respond when you are able to provide me the list I asked for. If it’s hard, let me give you a sample list here:
Shia clergy thoughts against Ahmadis:
1) Ahmadis are wajib Ul qatal
2) Ahmadis are agents of Jews and Israel who are harming Pakistan
3) Ahmadis Must be combated wherever found.
4) Ahmadis must be jailed if they call themselves Muslim
I can go on and on and on! Now make a list of how Ahmadi clerics restrict the freedoms of other Muslims. Include the fact that they openly condemn Shia genocide. I promise I will answer each point on your list. Make sure it affects your freedoms and rights.
January 27 at 6:43pm · Like · 1
Kashif N Chaudhry And I will write on this in detail on my wall after work.
January 27 at 6:43pm · Like · 1
Ilmana Fasih Having read this very disturbing thread, all I can say is that what one must believe is……that as individuals we are no one to know who is a Muslim who is not…It is to be decided by the Master of Judgement on the Day, not anyone before. Where in Quran has Allah given the right to others to judge who is who? No one has been given the right to call anyone right or wrong…for that matter 1.5 billion Muslims, any sect are bigots and liars in front of rest of 5 billion non Muslims. How does that feel like?
January 27 at 8:59pm · Edited · Like · 3
Haider Shah Pakistani Shias are becoming Wahhabis so what is the surprise here? https://lubp.net/archives/294005
January 27 at 8:23pm · Edited · Like
Abdul please don’t be a hypocrite! Please first condemn Holy Prophet Muhammad (sa) or for that matter Allah for declaring Jews and Christians as pigs and monkeys!
Let’s see the level of your honesty!
You cannot bring Prophets to the same level as other human beings and expect Ahmadis to condemn their holy founder Hadhrat Mirza Ghulam Ahmad(as). You completely ignore the message of peace he has for his fellow Muslims – read paigham e sulah.
For Prophets to say something is one thing but for the ordinary people to emphasize and declare others kafir repeatedly on a daily basis is another thing!
Besides let’s see your honesty…..
@Muslim
Prophet Muhammad (P.B.U.H.) did not declare Muslims outside the fold of Islam. Mirza Ghulam Ahmad declared majority of Muslims (non-Ahmadis) outside the fold of Islam, declaring them Kafir and Hell Bound. See the difference?
In terms of takfir of other Muslims, Mirza Ghulam Ahmad’s stance is well documented.
When Ahmadis protest why they are declared Kafir by non-Ahmad clerics, they should also reflect on takfir of other Muslims by their own founder.
@Muslim Unity,
Yeah I see the difference: declaring a whole nation pigs or monkeys is MUCH WORSE than declaring someone Kafir.
Will you pleased for the sake of our beloved Christians now condemn Muhammad (sa) and Allah?
Why do you go back 100 years. Why not 1400 years?
Actually the Quran says:
“[4:151]Surely, those who disbelieve in Allah and His Messengers and desire to make a distinction between Allah and His Messengers, and say, ‘We believe in some and disbelieve in others,’ and desire to take a way in between, [4:152] These indeed are veritable disbelievers (kafirun), and We have prepared for the disbelievers an humiliating punishment.”
So the Quran declares those Muslims who reject Jesus (as) or Moses (as) as Kafir. So please for the sake of our fellow Christians condemn Hadhrat Muhammad (sa) and off course your Creator, Allah.
@Muslim
You have either not read my response or ignored it. Here’s another try.
Prophet Muhammad (P.B.U.H.) did not declare Muslims outside the fold of Islam. Mirza Ghulam Ahmad declared majority of Muslims (non-Ahmadis) outside the fold of Islam, declaring them Kafir and Hell Bound. See the difference?
I AM NOT TALKING ABOUT TAKFEER OF NON-MUSLIMS HERE. THE ISSUE AT HAND IS THE TAKFEER OF MUSLIMS WHICH WAS DONE NOT BY PROPHET MUHAMMAD (P.B.U.H.) BUT BY MIRZA GHULAM AHMED.
I have read your response very well. It is you who is ignoring what I am saying. I fully understand that you are saying that (in your view) Hadhrat Mirza Ghulam Ahmad (as) did Takfir whereas according to you Hadhrat Muhammad (sa) didn’t.
This is half baked truth and misses the whole point of this blog. Let me explain the latter first:
The purpose of any sane human rights activist is to remove any barrier that exists between any groups of people (here we have the case Ahmadis & Shias) but at the same time we must not forget our Christian brothers and sisters who are routinely mercilessly murdered in Pakistan. We know that the Holy Quran describes Jews and Christians as pigs and monkeys (to which no body has denied). This is MUCH MUCH MUCH WORSE than declaring someone a kafir.
Now will you for the SAKE OF OUR BROTHERS CHRISTIANS WHO ARE MERCILESSLY KILLED condemn Hadhrat Muhammad (sa) and Allah (swt)?
If not, why not? At least be honest enough to respond to this!
Now for the half-baked truth: you say Hadhrat Muhammad (sa) declared no Muslim as Kafir or Hell bound. YOU ARE WRONG!!!!!
There is a famous Hadith that prophecises that his Ummah will be divided into 73 sects. I need not quote it. Everybody knows that in that Hadith ALL bit 1 sect have been declared HELLBOUND!
AS far as Kufr is concerned I have already given you a verse of the Holy Quran that declares people people who reject any prophet as KAFIR! so if I (as a Muslim) were to consider Jesus (as) as not a prophet then I am a Kafir according to Quran!
So for the sake of CHRISTIANS AND MUSLIMS PLEASE CONDEMN HADHRAT MUHAMMAD (SA) AND ALLAH (SWT)!!!!
——-
However, you may be interested to know what Ahmadis (in my view) say to this….after all they are hardcore believeers in Quran! If you rewind a few verses back from the verse O quoted above you will realize that Allah commands Muslims NOT to say “thou art a kafir”! Since the Quran doesn’t contradict itself, what we can learn from Quran is that Quran and Prophets may ot may not declare Kufr on someone but WE as normal human beings are not to go around giving takfeer…..and indeed the Ahmadiyya Muslim Jama’at doesnt!
Once again you fail to answer my question.
For the hadith you quoted, there are two issues: it is a controversial hadith which is accepted by some Sunnis, not by Shias; moreover, the hadith does not issues fatwas of kufr against any sect because no sects were present in Prophet Muhamamd’s (P.B.U.H.) time.
Clearly you are adamant at defending the takfeer of majority of Muslims by Mirza Ghulam Ahmad. From my side, this debate is over. Denial has no remedy.
=================
قادیان کی شریعت مسلمانوں پر کفر کا فتویٰ دیتی ہے، مرزا بشیر احمد ایم اے لکھتے ہیں:
“اب معاملہ صاف ہے، اگر نبی کریم کا انکار کفر ہے تو مسیح موعود (غلام احمد قادیانی) کا انکار بھی کفر ہونا چاہئے، کیونکہ مسیح موعود نبی کریم سے الگ کوئی چیز نہیں، بلکہ وہی ہے۔”
“اور اگر مسیح موعود کا منکر کافر نہیں تو نعوذ باللہ نبی کریم کا منکر بھی کافر نہیں۔ کیونکہ یہ کس طرح ممکن ہے کہ پہلی بعثت میں تو آپ کا انکار کفر ہو، مگر دوسری بعثت (قادیان کی بروزی بعثت ․․․ناقل) میں جس میں بقول مسیح موعود آپ کی روحانیت اقویٰ اور اکمل اور اشد ہے ․․․․․․ آپ کا انکار کفر نہ ہو۔”
(کلمة الفصل ص:۱۴۷)
دوسری جگہ لکھتے ہیں:
“ہر ایک ایسا شخص جو موسیٰ کو تو مانتا ہے مگر عیسیٰ کو نہیں مانتا، یا عیسیٰ کو مانتا ہے مگر محمد کو نہیں مانتا، یا محمد کو مانتا ہے پر مسیح موعود (مرزا غلام احمد) کو نہیں مانتا وہ نہ صرف کافر، بلکہ پکا کافر اور دائرہ اسلام سے خارج ہے۔” (ص:۱۱۰)
ان کے بڑے بھائی مرزا محمود احمد صاحب لکھتے ہیں:
“کل مسلمان جو حضرت مسیح موعود (مرزا غلام احمد) کی بیعت میں شامل نہیں ہوئے، خواہ انہوں نے حضرت مسیح موعود کا نام بھی نہیں سنا وہ کافر اور دائرہ اسلام سے خارج ہیں۔”
(آئینہ صداقت ص:۳۵)
ظاہر ہے کہ اگر قادیانی بھی اسی محمد رسول اللہ کا کلمہ پڑھتے ہیں جن کا کلمہ مسلمان پڑھتے ہیں تو قادیانی شریعت میں یہ “کفر کا فتویٰ” نازل نہ ہوتا، اس لئے مسلمانوں اور قادیانیوں کے کلمہ کے الفاظ گو ایک ہی ہیں مگر ان کے مفہوم میں زمین و آسمان اور کفر و ایمان کا فرق ہے۔
قادیانی حضرات مرزا غلام احمد کے علاوہ نبوت کے دعوے کرنے والوں کو بھی کافر سمجھتے ہیں، جیسے ایران میں بہا الله نامی جھوٹا نبی، یا دیگر، جبکہ اگر یہ نبوت کے سلسلے کا حضرت محمد مصطفیٰ(ص) پر خاتمہ تسلیم نہیں کرتے تو ان کے بعد باقی مدعیان نبوت کی تکفیر کیوں کرتے ہیں؟
مسلمان ہونے کے لئے کلمہ شہادت ہی شرط ہے، مگر اس کلمہ شہادت میں محمد رسول الله سے مراد وہی نبی(ص) ہیں جن پر قرآن نازل ہوا، قادیانی حضرات اس سے فائدہ نہیں اٹھاسکتے، کیونکہ وہ اس کلمے میں مرزا کو شامل سمجھتے ہیں نیز ان کے نزدیک کلمہ شہادت پڑھنے سے آدمی مسلمان نہیں ہوتا بلکہ مرزا صاحب کی پیروی کرنے اور ان کی بیعت کرنے میں شامل ہونے سے مسلمان ہوتا ہے۔ یہی وجہ ہے کہ وہ دنیا بھر کے مسلمانوں کو کافر کہتے ہیں، مرزا غلام احمد قادیانی کہتا ہے کہ خدا نے انہیں یہ الہام کیا ہے کہ:
“جو شخص تیری پیروی نہیں کرے گا اور تیری بیعت میں داخل نہیں ہوگا اور تیرا مخالف رہے گا وہ خدا اور رسول کی نافرمانی کرنے والا اور جہنمی ہے۔” (تذکرہ طبع جدید ص:۳۳۶)
نیز مرزا قادیانی اپنا یہ الہام بھی سناتا ہے کہ:
“خدا تعالیٰ نے میرے پر ظاہر کیا ہے کہ ہر ایک شخص جس کو میری دعوت پہنچی اور اس نے مجھے قبول نہیں کیا وہ مسلمان نہیں ہے۔” (مرزا کا خط بنام ڈاکٹر عبدالحکیم)
مرزا صاحب کے بڑے صاحب زادے مرزا محمود احمد صاحب لکھتے ہیں:
“کل مسلمان جو حضرت مسیح موعود کی بیعت میں شامل نہیں ہوئے خواہ انہوں نے حضرت مسیح موعود کا نام بھی نہیں سنا وہ کافر اور دائرہ اسلام سے خارج ہیں۔” (آئینہ صداقت ص:۳۵)
First of all you did not ask a question
Second of all whether Hadhrat Muhammad (sa) was alive 1400 years ago when there were no sects is irrelevant as his teachings are still Alive when he said that MAJORITY OF MUSLIMS ARE HELLBOUND in the future. whatever you accuse of Hadhrat Mirza Ghulam Ahmad (as) you are in actual fact accusing Hadhrat Muhammad (sa)!!!
Whether you accept that Hadith or not, is not relevant. As I could find Hadith along similar lines that Shia in general accept.
Nonetheless, you FAILED to comment about the verses in Quran that declare Muslims who reject e.g. Jesus as KAFIR! WHY????
YET again you fail to discuss the points in the Quran where Allah declares Jews and Christians as PIGS AND MONKEYS! WHY????
SO REPEAT:
“I CONDEMN MIRZA GHULAM AHMAD AND BECAUSE I AM NOT A HYPOCRITE I SHALL CONDEMN HADHRAT MUHAMMAD AND MY CREATOR FOR ESSENTIALLY SAYING SIMILAR THINGS AS MIRZA GHULAM AHMAD”
https://lubp.net/archives/305467
Those who claim that Ahmadis have declared Other Muslims as Kafirs and present Statements from Hazrat Mirza Ghulam Ahmad Qadiani AS and Hazrat Mirza Bashir ud din Mehmood Ahmad RA. They say that our case that these statements are presented out of context should first wait and check that these allegations were replied and explained time and again. That they just regurgitated Mullah Propaganda, and have taken the line of “Majlis Ahrar”… These are excerpts from 1954 Munir Inquiry where these allegations were explained by The Imam of Jamat Ahmadiyya, Hazrat Mirza Bashir ud din Mehmood Ahmad RA.. Also I have taken excerpts of Khutba Juma by Hazrat Mirza Bashir ud din Mehmood Ahmad RA dated 26 April 1935, this was also mentioned in the Inquiry report.
This post is in response to the post by Let Us Build Pakistan https://lubp.net/archives/305259 which is an attempt to malign Ahmaidis and to defend the call from Ahmadis that those Shia Mullah who are a part of Kafir Factory should be confronted.
https://www.facebook.com/omaidus/posts/10201868063923128
I could not upload screen shots here, but one can use this link to check original screen shots.
assalam o alaikum. Could you give a gist or translation of your pics in English. Jazakallah!
———
قادیانیت اور ظالموں کی ملازمت
اس ویڈیو میں ملاحظہ کیجئے سابق اسرائیلی صدر شمعون پیریز کا اسرائیل میں قادیانیوں کے مرکز کا دورہ!
https://www.facebook.com/photo.php?v=701990609839052&set=vb.200356516669133&type=2&theater
——–
http://www.mediafire.com/download/bwqkhpn1x65b7ao/%D9%82%D8%A7%D8%AF%DB%8C%D8%A7%D9%86%DB%8C%D8%AA+%D9%BE%D8%B1+%D8%B4%DB%8C%D8%B9%DB%81+%D9%85%D9%88%D9%82%D9%81.pdf
http://www.scribd.com/doc/216417569/%D9%82%D8%A7%D8%AF%DB%8C%D8%A7%D9%86%DB%8C%D8%AA-%D9%BE%D8%B1-%D8%B4%DB%8C%D8%B9%DB%81-%D9%85%D9%88%D9%82%D9%81-Qadiyaniat-aur-Shia
The fundamental flaw with Kashif’s argument is he stands committed to apologize for his Caliph’s and Mirza sb’s statements.
In this situation he cannot possibly be expected to be objective.
Neither can Abdul be objective unless he condemns Allah for calling in the Quran Jews and Christians as pigs and monkeys!!
The stupidy of this blog….fail to understand the difference between theology and advocacy
Theological takfeer is good but advocacy takfeer is bad.
Good Takfeer (done by Ahmadis), bad Takfeer (done by Sunni and Shia).
Bravo.
(So called) takfeer by Ahmadis bad
Declaration of Kufr, pigs, monkeys good
Bravo!
ABDUL LOVES FITNAH.
whatever bridges Ahmadis are trying to.build, he is trying to destroy by attacking religious scriptures!
Mirza Bashir-ud-Din Mahmud Ahmad Contradicts His Own Published Statements on ‘Deniers of Hazrat Mirza Sahib are Kafirs’, When He Appears In the Court of Law, in 1953:
Mian Bashiruddin Mahmood Ahmad on page 35 of his book Aaina-i-Sadaqat admits that his beliefs are:
“That I have spread the idea about Hazrat Masih-i-Mauood that he is, in fact, a prophet. … Thirdly that all Muslims who have not entered the baiyat [pledge] of Hazrat Masih-i-Mauood, although they have not heard even his name, are kafirs and outside the pale of Islam.”
Again during the Annual Jalsa of December 1913, Mian Sahib called his party of Ansaarullah. Other people also attended this meeting. In this meeting he stated: “If someone places a sword on one side of my neck and asks me not to call non-Ahmadis as kafirs, even then I shall reply that they are kafirs and I shall certainly call them kafir.” (Paigham-i-Sulh, 21st September 1947, page 5).
Now contrast this verbosity with his subsequent docility. Not to talk of the threat of a sword, he was not even pierced with a thorn but the stand taken in front of the Munir Inquiry Committee was entirely opposed to the beliefs stated above. The following statement is given on page 199 of “The Report of the Court of Inquiry to Inquire into the Punjab Disturbances of 1953″:
“On the question whether the Ahmadis (Note by the Webmaster: the Qadiani Ahmadis implied here; the Lahori Ahmadis have never, God Forbid, proclaimed non-Ahmadis to be outside the pale of Islam) consider the other Muslmans to be kafirs in the sense of their being outside the pale of Islam, the position taken before us is that such persons are not kafirs and that the word ‘kafir’, when used in the literature of the Ahmadis in respect of such persons, is used in the sense of minor heresy and that it was never intended to convey that such persons were outside the pale of Islam. We have seen the previous pronouncements of Ahmadis on this subject, which are numerous, and to us they do not seem to be capable of any other interpretation than this that people who did not believe in Mirza Ghulam Ahmad were outside the pale of Islam.”
Of course in view of the Sunni (Deobandi, Barelvi, Ahle Hadith) pressure of the Khatme-e-Nabuwat Movement, later Mirza Bashiruddin changed his stance in 1950s without retracting his earlier stance.
– See more at: https://lubp.net/archives/305467#comment-917515
Hamdani Group of Ahmadis (Yasser Latif Hamdani, Tahir Imran Mian, Omaid Malik and Kashif Chaudhry) regularly attack Sunni and Shia clerics on their Takfeer of Ahmadis but actively and shamelessly defend Takfeer of non-Ahmadis by Ahmadi Prophet and his Khalifas.
Hamdani Group of Ahmadis has nothing to do with Ahmadiyya Muslims.
This is wildely incorrect and a blatant lie. I read Kashifs Twitter feed regularly and can confirm that he speaks out against Shia Genocide and works to defend the rights of all.
This seems to be an attempt by a ‘pretend Ahmadi’ to delude the layman.
کچھ احمدی بھائیوں نے وطیرہ بنا لیا ہے کہ جب بھی شیعوں پر دیوبندی تکفیری دہشت گرد حملہ کرتے ہیں اور درجنوں شیعہ شہید کر دیتے ہیں تو پہلے تو یہ شیعہ نسل کشی پر اظہار افسوس کرتے ہیں لیکن اس کے ساتھ ساتھ طنز بھی کرتے ہیں کہ چونکہ شیعہ مولویوں نے احمدیوں کی تکفیر میں حصہ لیا تھا اس لئے جو شیعہ نے کل بویا وہ آج کاٹ رہے ہیں – کچھ تو کھلم کھلا جھوٹ بولتے ہیں کہ شیعہ مولویوں نے احمدیوں کے واجب القتل ہونے کا فتویٰ بھی جاری کیا ہے – حقیقت یہ ہے کہ کسی بھی شیعہ مجتہد نے احمدیوں کے کافر ہونے کا فتویٰ جاری نہیں کیا بلکہ آیت الله سیستانی کا فتویٰ تو بالواسطہ ان کے لیے نرمی فراہم کرتا ہے – امین شہیدی نے بھی فقط مرزا غلام احمد کو جھوٹا نبی، مرتد اور واجب القتل کہا تھا تمام احمدیوں کو نہیں کیونکہ ان پر مرتد کا اطلاق ہوتا ہی نہیں
اصل میں یہ کچھ لوگ یاسر لطیف ہمدانی، طاہر عمران میاں، کاشف چودھری اور امید ملک کا ایک چھوٹا سا مفاد پرست گروہ ہے جس کا جماعت احمدیہ سے کوئی تعلق نہیں ورنہ یہ شیعہ مولویوں کو تکفیری کہ کر اپنے ہی مسیح موعود نبی اور خلیفوں کے تکفیری بیانات کا دفتر کھولنے پر مجبور نہ کرتے – انہیں کہتے ہیں نادان دوست – لیکن شاید یہی ان کا منشا تھا مظلوم لوگوں میں پھوٹ دلوانا – ناکام ہو گئے
اچار احمدیہ میں کافر مسلمان کو تب مکس کیا گیا جب پاکستانی مسلمان ان کے پیچھے پڑے
احمدیہ کی نظر میں باقی سب کافر بھی ہیں اور دائرہ اسلام میں بھی، گویا دن بھی ہیں اور رات بھی
what is wrong with all you people you say one thing over and over , what a waste of time invest your energy elsewhere somewhere productive i hope.
Abdul Nishapuri’s comment from facebook:
You cannot be an honest Shia rights activist unless you clearly condemn a few Shia clerics’ hate remarks against Ahmadis. You cannot be an honest Ahmadi rights activist if you keep on providing taweelat (justifications) of takfeer (apostatizing) of non-Ahmadis by certain Ahmadi clerics.
Human rights cannot be selective, and false neutrality and populism are an anathema to activism.
Of course, none of the both communities has ever participated in acts of violence against each other. And of course, no Shia cleric (Mujtahid) has ever done takfeer of non-Shias, not even in reaction to the incessant curses of Shia Kafir by Deobandi and Salafi hate clerics.
https://www.facebook.com/AbdulNishapuri/posts/820422827974553
تکفیریوں کی بستی میں ایک دن – از عامر حسینی
https://lubp.net/archives/308595
Ali Murtaza’s comment:
Mirza Ghulam Ahmed, the founder of Ahmedi religion, called Shias “a heap of dung” and insulted Imam Hussain (as), one of the most revered personalities in Shia and Sunni Islam alike. How can anyone fail to condemn this hate spewing from Mirza Ghulam Ahmed? Criticism is one thing (and it should be encouraged) but abusing and name-calling is a different thing altogether. I hope some follower of Mirza Ghulam Ahmed can explain his statement.
“اسلام میں شیعہ مسلک چوروں کی طرح پھیل گیا ہے اور ان لوگوں نے بہت انسانوں کو گمراہ کیا ہوا ہے_ تم شیعوں نے مشرکوں کی طرح حسین کی قبر کا طواف کیا_ حسین تمہیں نہ آزادی دے سکا نہ مدد کر سکا_ کئی دن تمھارے ناکام ہونے کے شاہد ہیں، خصوصا وہ دن جب علی کے بجاۓ ابوبکر، عمر اور عثمان خلیفہ بنے_ اور وہ دن جب تم نے حسین کے بھائی مسلم اور اس کی اولاد کو چھوڑ دیا اور وہ قید کر لیے گئے_ تم ڈر کے بھاگ گئے اور اہل بیت قتل کر دیے گئے_ تب حسین کی کمزوری ظاہر ہو گئی_ یہ تمہاری خام خیالی ہے کہ حسین سید الوریٰ ہے_ اے جنگلیوں کے ریوڑ تم پر ویل ہو، تمہیں یہ کہنے کی ہمت کیسے ہو گئی؟ تم نے قتل ہو چکنے والے حسین سے نجات چاہی ہے جو خود ناامید ہو کر مر گیا ہے_ پس تم لوگوں کو ہلاک کرنے والے خداۓ غیور نے ہمیشہ ناامید کیا_ میں خدا کا کشتہ ہوں اور تمہارا حسین دشمنوں کا کشتہ ہے پس مجھ میں اور حسین میں فرق واضح اور ظاہر ہے_ کاش تم یہ سب کرنے سے پہلے ہی مر جاتے اور دین تمہاری وجہ سے تباہ نہ ہوتا_ ہر مصیبت میں حسین حسین کرتے ہو گویا وہی تمہارا خدا ہے_ شیعہ مسلک اسلام پر ایک مصیبت ہے، گویا کستوری کی خوشبو کے پہلو میں پاخانے کا ڈھیر رکھا ہوا ہے”
_
نام کتاب: اعجاز احمدیہ، ضمیمہ نزول مسیح، صفحہ 192 -194؛ مصنف: مرزا غلام احمد
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All who believe in Muawia who use to curse Ali the forth Caliph of Islam , is Kafir because to curse a sahabi is Kufr. Let us decide to condemn Muawia and his lovers all over the world. Those people are worst than any thing.
Shame on all those who hate Ali(R.A) and praise and love Muawia. If one does not love Ali and love three caliphs , has no faith at all. They are neither sunni nor wahabi. Shame on this kind of faith in which you love an abuser and abused caliph.
Mirza Qadiani and his followers offer namaz in the way our sunni and wahabi brothers do. Qadianiat is closer to these great two sects and it were shias who proved in the national assembly of Pakistan and helped the government of that time to declare Ahmedis Kafir.Go and see them in their Jamat khana whether they offer namaz like shias or sunnis and wahabis. Go to hell and stop lying and accusing shias.