I applaud President Zardari for standing by KL-bill. Strings attached with it is to check GHQ’s role. I am disappointed by PMLN’s opposition to bill. They project themselves as anti-establishment party. Mian Sb. makes repeated statements about CoD where he and BB agreed to strengthen political forces against GHQ. Thats what precisely KL-bill is attempting. Apparently PMLN’s opposition to GHQ is just for political point scoring. IN reality they are one of the forces protecting status quo.
PMLN is going back to its roots – GHQ. GHQ is pushing them to express their concerns on KL – bill. Change in PMLN’s policy after Mian Shahbaz Sharif’s meeting with Gen Kiyani.
SS’s meeting with Gen. Kiyani was in clear violation of CoD that PMLN was beating drum abt for past 2 years. The bubble of PMLN being anti-establishment party did not last long.
BB fought against Army in 80’s but came in power in ‘88 on terms of GHQ. NS followed BB’s footsteps. Shame on both …. our populist leaders being dictated by GHQ.
Mullahs and JI have always been voice of GHQ in political areana. My complaints are from PMLN. They claimed they are the anti-establishment force and are now vocing GHQ’s cocerns on KL bill. I hope you know 1.5 B $$$ development aid is unconditional and conditions are tied with only military aid F-16s etc. Amount of military aid is not specified in bill. And the conditions tied to military aid are:
1. No nuclear proliferation and share information on proliferation suppliers network
2. Will not work sponsor militants, no afghan jihad, no kashmir jihad etc
3. Army should be governed by civilians
My complaints are from main stream political parties PMLN and PPP who are voicing GHQ’s concerns … Shame on them.
When did mian sb. met kiyani? And you are right it was the clear violation of CoD , it will however be interesting to find out what Kiyani and NS would have discussed. I am not sure NS has anything more to offer Kiyani other than a moral/verbal support. Mian sb. is not going to trust Kiyani or any other General anymore after 12th of October 1999. By the way it is going to be 10 years since Mian Sb. have not seen PM house therefore he might be thinking his moral right now to be in the PM house.
On the Army’s concerns about the KL bill, I must say that for the first time there is a genuine commons sense bill by the American nuts (I call American legislatures as “nuts”) , otherwise we have seen bills as silly as Pressler and Brown. Military mafia is genuinely concerned about the civilians controlling the flow of cash to them. Only problem is that it is not going to affect them in anyway except it hurts their ego. I am sure AZ or NS don’t have enough muscle power to meaningfully control the cash flow to the army.
Reading the bill it seems that Americans are not yet interested in stopping the money to army in the near future (perhaps as long as they are in Afghanistan) , therefore army is probably not worried on this count.
Mian Shahbaz Sharif and Ch. Nisar met Gen. Kiyani Sunday night. Initially meeting was denied by Ahsan Iqbal but today Raja Zafar ul Haq confirmed it on some talk show.
I wonder what right PPPP and PMLN has to blame PMLQ …. they themselves are dying to get GHQ’s nod ….
Kerry told reporters in Washington on Tuesday that there were no conditions attached to development aid and the bill’s conditions on military aid “do not require anything of Pakistan that is not already in the stated policy of the government and opposition parties.”
What is the fuss then?
Read the bill first then….
I thoroughly read the bill and was the first one to post congress approved draft on this site. I hope you know civilian aid is unconditional and strings are only attached to military aid. And I agree with all the conditions attached to military aid. No nuclear proliferation, no to jihadi organization and GHQ should work under civilan regime.
I am sure you just advised me to read the bill you haven’t read yourself.
if pakistan rejects this kerry lugar bill,pakistan will be the most foolish nation on earth.
Hamid Mir can not do a focussed program. He tried to cover KL bill, Musharaaf’s trail and Balouchistan deprivation … all mega issues in one program the result is usual chutur chutur chutur…..
Hasil Bajenjo is absolutely right – nothing is wrong with KL bill. Conditions are tied to military aid, civilian aid (not loan) is unconditional.
There are some stupid people who give arguments that our textile exports are X B $$$s, our overseas Pakistanis send Y B $$$ we do not need this aid. That X and Y B $$$ are going to individual’s pockets its not the public fund that can build schools, roads, etc. We have 10+ hrs of load shading, last month 21 people were crushed to get ataa, we have some major crisis every quarter sugar, fertilizers, ata … and we are saying we don’t need 1500 M $$$ every year just bcaz you are asking our GHQ to work under civilian regime … give me a break …
Anwer Kamal said:
Bazenjo was quite true and realistic but Hamid Meer, Kamran Khan , Dr Shahid and many other looks like Faraoons now. They are very proud, looks working for their own agendas quoting their own views more than anylising any topic and many knew now their mission. They forgot Nawaz Shareef now and working for some other perhaps.
if pakistan rejects this kl bill,india will not only laugh on us but also will cele berate on the stupidity of this nation.
can some one tell me how the kerry logar bill is against pakistans interest.
i really donot understand
Media is paksitan is doing the same thing as the conservative radio talk show hosts are doing to health care bill in US.
drum Beating since they dont have a better thing to do.
The key point is:
“Pak Army is at least as critical reality of the Pakistani politics as the US.”
The present government has ignored this precisely. Many credible analyst including Talat Hussein has claimed that government intentionally asked to include the clauses which would put military under pressure.
Yes. Military should be under civilian control. But given the present performance of the government, it is not possible in the near future. Had this government performed well enough, we would had moved significantly forward towards democracy.
I would not be surprised if the present military take over, if happen, would enjoy enormous support from the poor. Never forget that, politics is local everywhere and revolve around basic needs.
Military should be under civilian control. But given the present performance of the government, it is not possible in the near future. Had this government performed well enough, we would had moved significantly forward towards democracy.
Military should be under civilian control without any “but” and “if”. If the performance of government is not good or unsatisfactory, there is legal procedure to remove the government. This is the responsibility of parliament, opposition parties and awaam to keep the government on track. Military has no right to interfere in government affairs. Military must obey the orders of civilian government even if it is the worst government. Opposition leared must not have a secret meeting with army chief in the dark night. Let the democracy grow in the country and with the passage of time all corrupt politicians will be out of politics. Awaam is the best judge. Let the people decide who should rule over the country.
Here you are making an academic argument. I have no disagreement with that on principal. But common man has no appeal in such arguments. The consensus against military rule developed two years ago is gradually decreasing.
As you said that Awam is the best judge, if military take over happen at present, it will have immense support for the Awam. If you have any doubt, spend little time on streets and you will know that. But for this you will have to leave out from your academic world for a while.
Ali Q said:
madeel, you’re mistaken.
Why are we looking towards military to take over the country? What did the 32/62 year direct military rule give us? Who is responsible of present crises? Was the military rule an excellent rule in the country in past? Why is not public protesting against corruption of present government?
Do you think military will solve all our problems? If no, then why again military government? If there is military government in Pakistan, what message goes to the whole world?
No one cried about sovereignity when military dictators give land to fly U-2 for Soviet spying, prefered to break the country instead of calling a civilian (Sheikh Mujib) their boss, suggested out of box solutions for Kashmir or laid down on one telephone call. Now this is civilain govt. and lead by a non Punjabi then every one has ache in stomach about sovereignity .
this nation is getting extremist.we started to think exactly the somali and afghani think.we dont use our own mind we just follow anchors and politicians.we are being mislead,america is our enemy,america wants to humiliate us,all wrong.america wants to help us,wants to bring military under civil control,wants to solve our problems.
Bolta Pakistan – 7 October 2009
Nusrat Javed was lethal 2day . his satires were great 2nite plus the way he mocked ayla malik of situation room was hilarious. hahhahahaha
NJ was at his best. He is absolutely right core commanders had no right to express their reservations on KL bill. Shame on PMLN for standing with GHQ on this, for secretly meeting Gen. Kiyani. PMLN has exposed its past … GHQ’s puppit.
Martial laws can not be stopped by Musharaaf’s trial. They will be stopped if masses stand up to GHQ. Civilan aid is unconditional, military aid has conditions that our GHQ needs to follow but these shameless politicians are toingGHQ’s line in parliment.
I still remember Kh. Asif’s speach in Parliment against generals, Ch’ Nisar’s longs interviews against GHQ’s role …. but when it matters most they secretly meet generals, they give voice to GHQ’s concerns on public forums.
No one should blame Sheikh Rashid and Ch. Shujhat for being GHQ’s puppies … Apparently everyone is dying to be adopted by GHQ. They have learned their lessons. You demand Musharaaf’s trial for political point scoring and personal grudges … when Americans tie GHQ’s cash flow with civilian supermacy you stand by GHQ. They all are shameless coawrds and Mir Jafars. Why Americans are trying our parliment’s supermacy when our parlimentarians are defending GHQ’s supermacy over parliment.
NUSRAT JAVED SHAME ON YOU also mm, zardari ka passay halal kar raha hai, shut up nusrat you are not mama of media, we can not trust zardari, weldone army keep kicking the ass of these corroupt politicians.
You are a typical shameless crooked jamatiya who again trying to lick GHQ’s boots … same boots that kicked your a$$ for past few months in Swat …. and hopefully very soon in Waziristan. You invite and support GHQ when they walk into Islamabad and oppose them when they fight religious extremists ….
Whatever Kashif may have to say I can assure him that this time army take over would have immense support from the poor. People like us who have access to higher education or can sustain in the present inflation can take a principle stand: Army should never came in; let the present system continue it will cure its ills itself.
I agree with that principle stand. But in the streets, people think in terms of their basic needs. It is not just Pakistan, but it is true for the well-developed countries like US, France, England. At the very level, politics is always local and revolve around basic needs.
PPP supporters arguing that we can not mess with the US due to ground reality. By the same line of reasoning, they can not mess with the Army either. Rather than praising the bill selectively, then went on to praise it whole heartedly. The thought is that it is nice to keep military generals under the US pressure. But this simply unrealistic.
Practically speaking, this givernment can not last until 2011. If Zardari has some ability to foresee, he would go for new elections rather than let the army taking it over.
……………” this time army take over would have immense support from the poor”………..
Army takeover, or for that matter any change in government, always has immense support from the people. That is what is one of the main reason people of Pakistan keep on suffering. We have very short memories and we have no patience. Whoever comes into government, we want him to improve our personal circumstances overnight. When that does not happen, we start looking for a messiah. This cycle is repeated with each government.
Its about time that we learn to let teh system work. Let democracy flourish and change to come through democratic way.
Zardari is a liar and a dishonest person. He has proved this himself on national media. But the only way to get rid of him is to vote against his party in the next elections. If we let generals take charge of the situation, then people like zardari will play victims and will get people’s sympathies again.
Army is a subordinate institution which has no place in running of the country. It has already done too much damage to Pakistan because of its repeated coups.
Kashif fully agree with you. Since 1947 most of the aid is taken by military governments and our “respected” generals. Democratic government from 1988 till 1999 were under heavy economic sanctions. This time US wants to give aid directly to democratic government and these generals can’t swallow it…… probably our king Gen. Kiyani wants a share of it…..
Where was the “Gheirat” of these core commanders when Musharaf was sacking whole judiciary and civil society and lawyers were beaten like a hell on streets. Why were they not doing meetings when supreme court judges were house arrested for almost 6 months…….